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On April 30 2015 13:23 a-game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 11:03 OmniEulogy wrote:On April 30 2015 09:56 greebosnabble wrote:On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. He's telling EE and others to "shut up sissies", when he blamed his loss to MVP on unethical behavior without any proof. That's much worse whining than what EE's doing -- NS is a huge hypocrite. just because he's a hypocrite doesn't make him wrong. lol i feel like engaging in hypocrisy weakens your position quite a bit "do as i say, not as i do" has never been a resoundingly persuasive tactic
it's not good for persuasion, but we're talking about correctness here. there's separate argument against one's words and the person himself, and it is troublesome to mix the two
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What NS is talking about and the example of his hypocrisy are still not similar, and what he's saying is still true, even if you don't think it matches up with Envy precisely.
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Disregarding NS' own personal shortcomings, he is somewhat right in that a lot of ways that players are big prima donas nowadays.
Remember back to the days of CPL and other tournaments in early 2000s? Metal chairs, flat wooden desks, people standing behind you cheering/shouting as you play. Remember even some of the early MLG's back in 2010-2011 when it was a big deal they had a "players lounge" with 10 computers set aside? Now, players want everything. What your venue doesn't have 50/50 wifi connection? Horrible. No backstage lounge with couches, bean bags and TVs? Terrible. Matches delayed 30 minutes? Worst admins ever.
Some of it isn't completely the players' fault — for the newer ones especially its how they've been conditioned. For others though, its downright selfish and completely illogical to expect TI level service at every event.
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On April 30 2015 10:44 greebosnabble wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 10:17 Churrass wrote:On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. this is the internet, attacking the person instead of the arguments is the norm What arguments? NS doesn't have any arguments. He's just saying -- it's not perfect, it used to be way worse, if you're not happy, suck it up. He doesn't address any of envy's points about private bathrooms, respect, or speaker placement -- none of which require exorbitant amounts of money. He just attacks strawmen by saying that envy wants limosines and 5 star hotels.
He's saying EE ask too much and everyone shouldn't suck up to his standard of good tournament. There's no guideline on making "standard tournament" and even then it's still much better than years ago.
I have been to SMM 2009 and saw the arrangement. Tobi and Godz were there too. Players are put on stage only to be separated by a desk of 2 casters screaming at their gameplay! It was much worse back then though they made restricted path to players bathroom. Despite that FTD team managed to get from loser brackets to championship, they were even playing for 8 hours straight. SMM was the most paid tournament at that time and it was shit.
His complain only draw fans to get angry at something we know little things about.
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By the way, Dendi said basically the same thing in a recent interview.
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On April 30 2015 13:47 sang wrote: Disregarding NS' own personal shortcomings, he is somewhat right in that a lot of ways that players are big prima donas nowadays.
Remember back to the days of CPL and other tournaments in early 2000s? Metal chairs, flat wooden desks, people standing behind you cheering/shouting as you play. Remember even some of the early MLG's back in 2010-2011 when it was a big deal they had a "players lounge" with 10 computers set aside? Now, players want everything. What your venue doesn't have 50/50 wifi connection? Horrible. No backstage lounge with couches, bean bags and TVs? Terrible. Matches delayed 30 minutes? Worst admins ever.
Some of it isn't completely the players' fault — for the newer ones especially its how they've been conditioned. For others though, its downright selfish and completely illogical to expect TI level service at every event.
Not comparable.
Why? There is a lot more money involved now. A lot more. Who actually cares about back in the days? This isn't back in the days, this is now.
This is no longer just a gaming get together where a couple of nerds get together to see who is the best. It has now become a professional style event where people make this THEIR CAREER. There are some big money sponsors involved now and there is quite a lot of cash moneys flowing hands. It's getting the point where you expect a minimum level of service to the players because it's SUPPOSED to be a professional event.
Granted, EE sometimes bitches about things that aren't important, but most of the time he actually has legitimate complaints that should be rectified for any tournament with that high of a prize pool. Sound cancellation is an ABSOLUTE priority that no tournament seems to understand. The translation issue is absolutely absurd by this point.
Even a relatively minor issue like the private wash room actually has legitimacy behind it. Pro players on high tier teams are getting to the point where they can't leave their areas without being hounded by fifty some odd people just to go take a piss. How would you like it if you have a huge stressful event coming up and people just aren't going to leave you alone? Even if you think they owe it to the fans to be at the fan's "beck and call" 24/7 I don't think you really want to talk to a guy that straight blows you off because he simply has other more important things on his mind. That's not fun for anyone.
People rag on these pro gamers for bitching about "living the dream" but it honestly seems like it would be stressful as all hell. This is a job, one they have chosen yes, but with that there comes a level of professionalism that you expect from the events you attend. Most of the time EE's complaints seem pretty legitimate considering there are hundreds of thousands of people watching and probably at least that much money floating around.
That being said NS had some decent points too. The scene is still growing etc etc...but really some sort of minor regulation needs to start happening. When this much money is on the line simple things like sound issues, computer issues/backups, and translators really need to be taken care of. There is just no excuse for that any more.
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Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier.
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The scenario envy wants can be deemed to be an ideal one which organisers should strive to achieve. However one has to take into account budget and location constraints. Not every tournament is held in an auditorium where you can allocate private areas and toilets for players.
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On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
yes there is, why? because if bts took 100.000$ out of the pricepool of ts2, went to a greedy as loanshark with 100% interest to work with the money, they had 50k$ to buy pcs that actually worked with _no_ additonal costs for them. they could have rented a practice area with pcs as well for that kind of money. but no, they didnt. they got some cheap as prebuild computers which they did not test the slightest. oh esl new york had the same issues? oh well, we are too stupid to learn from other events.
even funnier because they do get working computers for ts3 now. i guess it was too much to ask to learn from others.
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Oh look, fwhqgads is posting about how easy it is to run a tournament again, I will read that right away.
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On April 30 2015 13:33 evanthebouncy! wrote: a teenage girl complaining there is no wifi on the bus an old man scolds her because back in the days there wasn't even a bus
both are right and wrong at the same time, really.
haha more or less this. they both want the same things, just think a different level of reaction to the current situation is appropriate.
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On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier.
I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did.
The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style
I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol)
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On April 30 2015 15:33 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier. I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did. The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol) I disagree with the volume/pitch of a lot of whines in this category from a lot of players AND I think Eternal Envy is a poor spokesperson for professionalism AND I don't buy the accusations of hypocrisy from NS based on what people have presented.
Internet Arguing 101 says "accuse people of ad hominem whenever possible" but it's not automatically invalid to discuss the messenger. Does Envy's lack of professionalism mean he can't be right about TOs? No, obviously not. But he's less likely to because he has no fucking clue what it's like trying to meet the expectations he seems to have. No clue.
There is always room for improvement in TOs and criticism should go to this end (unless the organizers are straight crooked or otherwise insincere in their attempt to put on a good tournament). Some LANs have LOTS of room for improvement even with the REALITY of what people want and what can be done taken into account. But the fact that the way that this is approached is frequently wrong is true. Envy can take some fucking time to format his goddamned posts rather than just drop his words from heaven and expect that people will wade through it because he is Envy (very professional of him). It's also true that there is a rising tide of players who are getting a little sick of the prima-donna-level expectations of some of these players who take a childish attitude about shit getting fucked up.
Henry Rollins:
Listen to the stage manager and get on stage when they tell you to. No one has time for the rock star act. None of the techs backstage care if you're David Bowie or the milkman. When you act like a jerk, they are completely unimpressed with the infantile display that you might think comes with your dubious status. They were there hours before you building the stage, and they will be there hours after you leave tearing it down. They should get your salary, and you should get theirs. Does this perfectly apply? No. But it does apply. And it's going to apply more and more without reality checks from inside the pro player community.
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I appreciate if you put some effort on formatting a little bit?
Managed to read. NS gave the required answer to Jacky Mao. I'd have said very similar things if I was in the right place. He hit a little bit harder than it should but I can take it. Well done NS.
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
best part was that photoshop
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"Just be glad that you became a part of this organism relatively late. You didn't participate in some tournaments held in a basement with $1000 prize fund, you didn't borrow money from your parents and friends to go and play there, you didn't receive $100 as a monthly payment from your organization. Jacky, you came when all was ready and you still complain. But anyway, we believe in you, Jacky, we think that you'll be able to endure for like five more years. Just stand, Jacky, and everything will be as you wish. Just stand..."
That nails it pretty nicely.
But we shouldnt forget that EE still has some valid points, like sleeping admins in china etc. etc.
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Funny how actually NS & EE are saying the same things : "The scene needs to grow, tourney needs to get better for player", and yet ...
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On April 30 2015 17:28 MotherOfRunes wrote: "Just be glad that you became a part of this organism relatively late. You didn't participate in some tournaments held in a basement with $1000 prize fund, you didn't borrow money from your parents and friends to go and play there, you didn't receive $100 as a monthly payment from your organization. Jacky, you came when all was ready and you still complain. But anyway, we believe in you, Jacky, we think that you'll be able to endure for like five more years. Just stand, Jacky, and everything will be as you wish. Just stand..."
That nails it pretty nicely.
no it doenst nail it nicely, it shows the current problem. a lot of people still remember the time where esports was extremly small and done by a few enthusiasts who put everything they had in there just to make it happen. of course those tournaments had issues on every end, its expected because it was done by people with no ressources who had no clue what they were doing and just did it for the love of the games.
but thats the past, its long gone now. esport evolved past this point a few years ago and we dont want to go back ever. there are a lot more ressources available now and a lot more experience events can draw from. the current performances of events does not reflect the increase in money that is involved now. if this is how teams compete for 100k$+ at starladder then a lot of people at starladder have no fucking brains at all and every tiny bit of public criticism they get is justified. and i dont want to hear anything else from anyone at starladder other than "sorry, we fucked up because we are stupid". there is no justification for this. 2000 it was ok to do it, 2015 it is absolutely not. its a disgrace for how big esports actually is and everyone who defends it really has to think what he wants esport to be. should it be professional or should it be some random amateur stuff people just do for fun?
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How does anyone take this blog seriously.
A lot of his points aren't even relevant to Envy's initial blog and the points he made. Many of which were simply asking for better player conditions. From here, you can take the NS approach and sit in the past, talking about how people used to play in god awful conditions and use this as justification to halt progress, don't forget to call them sissies (added effect). However prior to this he states about the eventual progress of eSports to meet Envy's points made in his blog.
What does NS's statement achieve though? Does he not agree with Envy or does he? Other than now knowing Envy and many others are sisses, no reasoning was given for why certain things couldn't be achieved. Honestly what was the point of this other than NS wanting to retort to Envy's claims.
Actually this blog is so dumb and pointless. Everything is dumb and pointless. Let's go back to ghetto era.
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