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Russian Federation8 Posts
This is a traslation of the blog that NS wrote earlier today: a reply to EternalEnVy's blog about tounament issues.
About Majors and Jacky Mao.
Jacky Mao has made a blog where he wrote a quite messy stream of consciousness about the current state of tournaments on Dota 2 competitive scene and his hopes for upcoming major events, which will be held by Valve from this autumn. I will talk about majors later, let's now talk about the blog and Jacky himself. In fact, he is not alone with his point of view. Many pro players, such as Funn1k, members of Team Secret and so on, frequently complain of tournaments, organizations, sponsors, etc. Even I used to do this during my career of pro player, because your rights must be defended and criticism leads to progress. But recently the subject of dissatisfaction has slightly changed. At some point a number of people started to demand too much and complain with and without a reason. The cause is clear – all eminent pro players have visited The International and have seen how a tournament can and, maybe, should look like with their very own eyes. These people can write big blogs and think while playing Dota, but they always forget (possibly because of sclerosis) that TI is held by Valve, a billion dollar company, whereas other tournaments are not. Some tournament organizers just can't provide everything that Valve do, isn't it clear? So, why pro players continue to write blogs about private washrooms, trailers and fresh fruits in the room? If you always want to be satisfied, participate in TI only, what's your problem? Oh, yes... You want to earn money all the year round, you need to show off in order to keep audience on your streams. What's more, all your fans would disappear then, 'cause why should they support a team that don't play anywhere? So, you need these tournaments, but all of them are shit, and you play there only because you need something to eat, right? Oh, what a pity! Didn't you know that a lot of people do work they don't like for the same reasons? Didn't you think that playing is your job and this is not always a pleasure? Or are you going to stick to the same “we are some young boys who just want to play Dota”? If so, then play pubs only. If not, then shut up, sissies. I do not declare that players must participate in every tournament they are asked to. No, no, no, they are not slaves. I always say that tournaments should be organized properly and professionally. But you need to consider that the scene is growing rapidly and unevenly. Organizers just physically can't satisfy all players' demands, because their abilities are limited by sponsors. In 2014 sponsor could give $100 and no one was complaining, right now he should give $500 for a private shithouse, limousine and a five-star hotel for superstars, but he is unable to see the difference yet (does this difference exist at all?) So, he wants to continue to give $100. Some day the growth of the scene will end, everything will be in place and e-Sports will finally become a real sport. But this is going to happen in 7-10 years, I assume. Right now we are put into a constantly developing organism, and this organism may experience some incorrect mutations, but don't worry, Jacky, we are going to deal with them. Just be glad that you became a part of this organism relatively late. You didn't participate in some tournaments held in a basement with $1000 prize fund, you didn't borrow money from your parents and friends to go and play there, you didn't receive $100 as a monthly payment from your organization. Jacky, you came when all was ready and you still complain. But anyway, we believe in you, Jacky, we think that you'll be able to endure for like five more years. Just stand, Jacky, and everything will be as you wish. Just stand...
So, how are majors connected with all of this? Let me explain. Right now Valve is the only company that can organize a series of tournaments and leave everyone, even Jacky Mao, satisfied. I hope that Valve will handle everything by itself and do everything properly, and e-Sports will finally become a few steps closer to the big sport.
Thank you for your attention.
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Russian Federation8 Posts
On April 30 2015 09:26 StarVe wrote: Thanks for translating!
No problem! Glad I could help.
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It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done.
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On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good.
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On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good.
He's telling EE and others to "shut up sissies", when he blamed his loss to MVP on unethical behavior without any proof. That's much worse whining than what EE's doing -- NS is a huge hypocrite.
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On April 30 2015 09:56 greebosnabble wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. He's telling EE and others to "shut up sissies", when he blamed his loss to MVP on unethical behavior without any proof. That's much worse whining than what EE's doing -- NS is a huge hypocrite. Ah well not only is that a totally representative simplification of what's been said but definitely delegitimizes his point.
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28057 Posts
I'm just going to say that pic at the end is awesome.
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Russian Federation8 Posts
On April 30 2015 10:00 TheEmulator wrote: I'm just going to say that pic at the end is awesome.
Not mine tho
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On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good.
this is the internet, attacking the person instead of the arguments is the norm
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On April 30 2015 10:17 Churrass wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. this is the internet, attacking the person instead of the arguments is the norm
What arguments? NS doesn't have any arguments. He's just saying -- it's not perfect, it used to be way worse, if you're not happy, suck it up. He doesn't address any of envy's points about private bathrooms, respect, or speaker placement -- none of which require exorbitant amounts of money. He just attacks strawmen by saying that envy wants limosines and 5 star hotels.
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On April 30 2015 09:56 greebosnabble wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. He's telling EE and others to "shut up sissies", when he blamed his loss to MVP on unethical behavior without any proof. That's much worse whining than what EE's doing -- NS is a huge hypocrite.
just because he's a hypocrite doesn't make him wrong. lol
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Katowice25012 Posts
Thanks for bringing it to us :D
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Envy is a special person... I'm surprised everyone takes it so seriously
there will always be people who complain, you will never please everyone
everything that rises must converge
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hahaha the picture is hilarious
On April 30 2015 11:20 aboxcar wrote: Envy is a special person... I'm surprised everyone takes it so seriously
there will always be people who complain, you will never please everyone
everything that rises must converge that's because he is very serious and actually complain rather than sit by and accept however other pros would normally just accept whatever is given to them
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typical scrub looking for publicity and flaming our great eesama. atleast do it faster like that awful caster who thinks hes a good player and has insightful things to say.
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On April 30 2015 11:03 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 09:56 greebosnabble wrote:On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. He's telling EE and others to "shut up sissies", when he blamed his loss to MVP on unethical behavior without any proof. That's much worse whining than what EE's doing -- NS is a huge hypocrite. just because he's a hypocrite doesn't make him wrong. lol
Definitely doesnt mean he's wrong, but it's pretty cowardly to strawman envy's argument in a way that it perfectly matches the hate bandwagon and keep taking jab after jab while talking about a strawman, whatever
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On April 30 2015 11:03 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 09:56 greebosnabble wrote:On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. He's telling EE and others to "shut up sissies", when he blamed his loss to MVP on unethical behavior without any proof. That's much worse whining than what EE's doing -- NS is a huge hypocrite. just because he's a hypocrite doesn't make him wrong. lol i feel like engaging in hypocrisy weakens your position quite a bit
"do as i say, not as i do" has never been a resoundingly persuasive tactic
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a teenage girl complaining there is no wifi on the bus an old man scolds her because back in the days there wasn't even a bus
both are right and wrong at the same time, really.
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On April 30 2015 13:23 a-game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 11:03 OmniEulogy wrote:On April 30 2015 09:56 greebosnabble wrote:On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. He's telling EE and others to "shut up sissies", when he blamed his loss to MVP on unethical behavior without any proof. That's much worse whining than what EE's doing -- NS is a huge hypocrite. just because he's a hypocrite doesn't make him wrong. lol i feel like engaging in hypocrisy weakens your position quite a bit "do as i say, not as i do" has never been a resoundingly persuasive tactic
it's not good for persuasion, but we're talking about correctness here. there's separate argument against one's words and the person himself, and it is troublesome to mix the two
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What NS is talking about and the example of his hypocrisy are still not similar, and what he's saying is still true, even if you don't think it matches up with Envy precisely.
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Disregarding NS' own personal shortcomings, he is somewhat right in that a lot of ways that players are big prima donas nowadays.
Remember back to the days of CPL and other tournaments in early 2000s? Metal chairs, flat wooden desks, people standing behind you cheering/shouting as you play. Remember even some of the early MLG's back in 2010-2011 when it was a big deal they had a "players lounge" with 10 computers set aside? Now, players want everything. What your venue doesn't have 50/50 wifi connection? Horrible. No backstage lounge with couches, bean bags and TVs? Terrible. Matches delayed 30 minutes? Worst admins ever.
Some of it isn't completely the players' fault — for the newer ones especially its how they've been conditioned. For others though, its downright selfish and completely illogical to expect TI level service at every event.
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On April 30 2015 10:44 greebosnabble wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 10:17 Churrass wrote:On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. this is the internet, attacking the person instead of the arguments is the norm What arguments? NS doesn't have any arguments. He's just saying -- it's not perfect, it used to be way worse, if you're not happy, suck it up. He doesn't address any of envy's points about private bathrooms, respect, or speaker placement -- none of which require exorbitant amounts of money. He just attacks strawmen by saying that envy wants limosines and 5 star hotels.
He's saying EE ask too much and everyone shouldn't suck up to his standard of good tournament. There's no guideline on making "standard tournament" and even then it's still much better than years ago.
I have been to SMM 2009 and saw the arrangement. Tobi and Godz were there too. Players are put on stage only to be separated by a desk of 2 casters screaming at their gameplay! It was much worse back then though they made restricted path to players bathroom. Despite that FTD team managed to get from loser brackets to championship, they were even playing for 8 hours straight. SMM was the most paid tournament at that time and it was shit.
His complain only draw fans to get angry at something we know little things about.
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By the way, Dendi said basically the same thing in a recent interview.
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On April 30 2015 13:47 sang wrote: Disregarding NS' own personal shortcomings, he is somewhat right in that a lot of ways that players are big prima donas nowadays.
Remember back to the days of CPL and other tournaments in early 2000s? Metal chairs, flat wooden desks, people standing behind you cheering/shouting as you play. Remember even some of the early MLG's back in 2010-2011 when it was a big deal they had a "players lounge" with 10 computers set aside? Now, players want everything. What your venue doesn't have 50/50 wifi connection? Horrible. No backstage lounge with couches, bean bags and TVs? Terrible. Matches delayed 30 minutes? Worst admins ever.
Some of it isn't completely the players' fault — for the newer ones especially its how they've been conditioned. For others though, its downright selfish and completely illogical to expect TI level service at every event.
Not comparable.
Why? There is a lot more money involved now. A lot more. Who actually cares about back in the days? This isn't back in the days, this is now.
This is no longer just a gaming get together where a couple of nerds get together to see who is the best. It has now become a professional style event where people make this THEIR CAREER. There are some big money sponsors involved now and there is quite a lot of cash moneys flowing hands. It's getting the point where you expect a minimum level of service to the players because it's SUPPOSED to be a professional event.
Granted, EE sometimes bitches about things that aren't important, but most of the time he actually has legitimate complaints that should be rectified for any tournament with that high of a prize pool. Sound cancellation is an ABSOLUTE priority that no tournament seems to understand. The translation issue is absolutely absurd by this point.
Even a relatively minor issue like the private wash room actually has legitimacy behind it. Pro players on high tier teams are getting to the point where they can't leave their areas without being hounded by fifty some odd people just to go take a piss. How would you like it if you have a huge stressful event coming up and people just aren't going to leave you alone? Even if you think they owe it to the fans to be at the fan's "beck and call" 24/7 I don't think you really want to talk to a guy that straight blows you off because he simply has other more important things on his mind. That's not fun for anyone.
People rag on these pro gamers for bitching about "living the dream" but it honestly seems like it would be stressful as all hell. This is a job, one they have chosen yes, but with that there comes a level of professionalism that you expect from the events you attend. Most of the time EE's complaints seem pretty legitimate considering there are hundreds of thousands of people watching and probably at least that much money floating around.
That being said NS had some decent points too. The scene is still growing etc etc...but really some sort of minor regulation needs to start happening. When this much money is on the line simple things like sound issues, computer issues/backups, and translators really need to be taken care of. There is just no excuse for that any more.
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Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier.
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The scenario envy wants can be deemed to be an ideal one which organisers should strive to achieve. However one has to take into account budget and location constraints. Not every tournament is held in an auditorium where you can allocate private areas and toilets for players.
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On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
yes there is, why? because if bts took 100.000$ out of the pricepool of ts2, went to a greedy as loanshark with 100% interest to work with the money, they had 50k$ to buy pcs that actually worked with _no_ additonal costs for them. they could have rented a practice area with pcs as well for that kind of money. but no, they didnt. they got some cheap as prebuild computers which they did not test the slightest. oh esl new york had the same issues? oh well, we are too stupid to learn from other events.
even funnier because they do get working computers for ts3 now. i guess it was too much to ask to learn from others.
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Oh look, fwhqgads is posting about how easy it is to run a tournament again, I will read that right away.
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On April 30 2015 13:33 evanthebouncy! wrote: a teenage girl complaining there is no wifi on the bus an old man scolds her because back in the days there wasn't even a bus
both are right and wrong at the same time, really.
haha more or less this. they both want the same things, just think a different level of reaction to the current situation is appropriate.
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On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier.
I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did.
The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style
I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol)
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On April 30 2015 15:33 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier. I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did. The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol) I disagree with the volume/pitch of a lot of whines in this category from a lot of players AND I think Eternal Envy is a poor spokesperson for professionalism AND I don't buy the accusations of hypocrisy from NS based on what people have presented.
Internet Arguing 101 says "accuse people of ad hominem whenever possible" but it's not automatically invalid to discuss the messenger. Does Envy's lack of professionalism mean he can't be right about TOs? No, obviously not. But he's less likely to because he has no fucking clue what it's like trying to meet the expectations he seems to have. No clue.
There is always room for improvement in TOs and criticism should go to this end (unless the organizers are straight crooked or otherwise insincere in their attempt to put on a good tournament). Some LANs have LOTS of room for improvement even with the REALITY of what people want and what can be done taken into account. But the fact that the way that this is approached is frequently wrong is true. Envy can take some fucking time to format his goddamned posts rather than just drop his words from heaven and expect that people will wade through it because he is Envy (very professional of him). It's also true that there is a rising tide of players who are getting a little sick of the prima-donna-level expectations of some of these players who take a childish attitude about shit getting fucked up.
Henry Rollins:
Listen to the stage manager and get on stage when they tell you to. No one has time for the rock star act. None of the techs backstage care if you're David Bowie or the milkman. When you act like a jerk, they are completely unimpressed with the infantile display that you might think comes with your dubious status. They were there hours before you building the stage, and they will be there hours after you leave tearing it down. They should get your salary, and you should get theirs. Does this perfectly apply? No. But it does apply. And it's going to apply more and more without reality checks from inside the pro player community.
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I appreciate if you put some effort on formatting a little bit?
Managed to read. NS gave the required answer to Jacky Mao. I'd have said very similar things if I was in the right place. He hit a little bit harder than it should but I can take it. Well done NS.
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
best part was that photoshop
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"Just be glad that you became a part of this organism relatively late. You didn't participate in some tournaments held in a basement with $1000 prize fund, you didn't borrow money from your parents and friends to go and play there, you didn't receive $100 as a monthly payment from your organization. Jacky, you came when all was ready and you still complain. But anyway, we believe in you, Jacky, we think that you'll be able to endure for like five more years. Just stand, Jacky, and everything will be as you wish. Just stand..."
That nails it pretty nicely.
But we shouldnt forget that EE still has some valid points, like sleeping admins in china etc. etc.
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Funny how actually NS & EE are saying the same things : "The scene needs to grow, tourney needs to get better for player", and yet ...
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On April 30 2015 17:28 MotherOfRunes wrote: "Just be glad that you became a part of this organism relatively late. You didn't participate in some tournaments held in a basement with $1000 prize fund, you didn't borrow money from your parents and friends to go and play there, you didn't receive $100 as a monthly payment from your organization. Jacky, you came when all was ready and you still complain. But anyway, we believe in you, Jacky, we think that you'll be able to endure for like five more years. Just stand, Jacky, and everything will be as you wish. Just stand..."
That nails it pretty nicely.
no it doenst nail it nicely, it shows the current problem. a lot of people still remember the time where esports was extremly small and done by a few enthusiasts who put everything they had in there just to make it happen. of course those tournaments had issues on every end, its expected because it was done by people with no ressources who had no clue what they were doing and just did it for the love of the games.
but thats the past, its long gone now. esport evolved past this point a few years ago and we dont want to go back ever. there are a lot more ressources available now and a lot more experience events can draw from. the current performances of events does not reflect the increase in money that is involved now. if this is how teams compete for 100k$+ at starladder then a lot of people at starladder have no fucking brains at all and every tiny bit of public criticism they get is justified. and i dont want to hear anything else from anyone at starladder other than "sorry, we fucked up because we are stupid". there is no justification for this. 2000 it was ok to do it, 2015 it is absolutely not. its a disgrace for how big esports actually is and everyone who defends it really has to think what he wants esport to be. should it be professional or should it be some random amateur stuff people just do for fun?
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How does anyone take this blog seriously.
A lot of his points aren't even relevant to Envy's initial blog and the points he made. Many of which were simply asking for better player conditions. From here, you can take the NS approach and sit in the past, talking about how people used to play in god awful conditions and use this as justification to halt progress, don't forget to call them sissies (added effect). However prior to this he states about the eventual progress of eSports to meet Envy's points made in his blog.
What does NS's statement achieve though? Does he not agree with Envy or does he? Other than now knowing Envy and many others are sisses, no reasoning was given for why certain things couldn't be achieved. Honestly what was the point of this other than NS wanting to retort to Envy's claims.
Actually this blog is so dumb and pointless. Everything is dumb and pointless. Let's go back to ghetto era.
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I find it actually funny all of you here are trying to say how easy it is to set up a tournament like it's nothing.
You all realize how tough it is right? No one is Valve, or Blizzard, or Riot. To assume all companies and match that kind of quality is just stupid. The best anyone can do is their best and provide what they can.
Then there is cost and more importantly how much they earn. Look people, we are ALL fans here. Thinking that all tournaments earn money back right away is dumb.
Look at MLG when they dumped Halo, the game that made MLG, well MLG. And what did Sundance say? During those years, they were barely making their money back. It's different now when they picked up other games and stepped away from Halo.
While EE's points is badly constructed, he is right on some parts, but also asking for too much on others. NS for his personality etc is also right. Respect pros opinion, and stop acting like you are all business majors and know what's going on behind the scenes.
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He should have accurately rewrote EEs complain, I read the blog yesterday, NS amplifies and deforms which ruins his point. He also does not state anything else, it's just a formalised "stfu". It makes him sound dumb and whiny. The fact people brings up hypocrisy issue in comments make things even worse for his point.
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The way he worded things sounded very culturally ingrained
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On April 30 2015 14:36 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 13:47 sang wrote: Disregarding NS' own personal shortcomings, he is somewhat right in that a lot of ways that players are big prima donas nowadays.
Remember back to the days of CPL and other tournaments in early 2000s? Metal chairs, flat wooden desks, people standing behind you cheering/shouting as you play. Remember even some of the early MLG's back in 2010-2011 when it was a big deal they had a "players lounge" with 10 computers set aside? Now, players want everything. What your venue doesn't have 50/50 wifi connection? Horrible. No backstage lounge with couches, bean bags and TVs? Terrible. Matches delayed 30 minutes? Worst admins ever.
Some of it isn't completely the players' fault — for the newer ones especially its how they've been conditioned. For others though, its downright selfish and completely illogical to expect TI level service at every event. Not comparable. Why? There is a lot more money involved now. A lot more. Who actually cares about back in the days? This isn't back in the days, this is now. This is no longer just a gaming get together where a couple of nerds get together to see who is the best. It has now become a professional style event where people make this THEIR CAREER. There are some big money sponsors involved now and there is quite a lot of cash moneys flowing hands. It's getting the point where you expect a minimum level of service to the players because it's SUPPOSED to be a professional event. Granted, EE sometimes bitches about things that aren't important, but most of the time he actually has legitimate complaints that should be rectified for any tournament with that high of a prize pool. Sound cancellation is an ABSOLUTE priority that no tournament seems to understand. The translation issue is absolutely absurd by this point. Even a relatively minor issue like the private wash room actually has legitimacy behind it. Pro players on high tier teams are getting to the point where they can't leave their areas without being hounded by fifty some odd people just to go take a piss. How would you like it if you have a huge stressful event coming up and people just aren't going to leave you alone? Even if you think they owe it to the fans to be at the fan's "beck and call" 24/7 I don't think you really want to talk to a guy that straight blows you off because he simply has other more important things on his mind. That's not fun for anyone. People rag on these pro gamers for bitching about "living the dream" but it honestly seems like it would be stressful as all hell. This is a job, one they have chosen yes, but with that there comes a level of professionalism that you expect from the events you attend. Most of the time EE's complaints seem pretty legitimate considering there are hundreds of thousands of people watching and probably at least that much money floating around. That being said NS had some decent points too. The scene is still growing etc etc...but really some sort of minor regulation needs to start happening. When this much money is on the line simple things like sound issues, computer issues/backups, and translators really need to be taken care of. There is just no excuse for that any more.
Think you misunderstood me. This isn't a call out for players to "man up" or anything like that. Its merely an illustration of our shifting expectations that have jumped radically over the last 3-4 years.
Obviously standards are higher now and should be higher. Things like working computers, professional translators and appropriate noise cancelation are a few things that are vital - no one will argue the latter more than me because at the core this is still a competition and there needs to be an even playing field.
That being said, as I spoke to, some expectations just aren't realistic. You just aren't going to have limo service to and from events. There probably isn't going to be catered food all over. Even if an event organizer has everything perfectly planned, things will always invariably occur during the event that need to be addressed.
No one is denying organizers can do more to improve the experience, both for players and live spectators. But let's not knee jerk every time an event has one or two negative qualities. Speaking about Starladder in particular, this was the first time they've had the finals at Dreamhack. Invariably they learned a few things if they decide to host the event there again.
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On April 30 2015 20:13 sang wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 14:36 Jayme wrote:On April 30 2015 13:47 sang wrote: Disregarding NS' own personal shortcomings, he is somewhat right in that a lot of ways that players are big prima donas nowadays.
Remember back to the days of CPL and other tournaments in early 2000s? Metal chairs, flat wooden desks, people standing behind you cheering/shouting as you play. Remember even some of the early MLG's back in 2010-2011 when it was a big deal they had a "players lounge" with 10 computers set aside? Now, players want everything. What your venue doesn't have 50/50 wifi connection? Horrible. No backstage lounge with couches, bean bags and TVs? Terrible. Matches delayed 30 minutes? Worst admins ever.
Some of it isn't completely the players' fault — for the newer ones especially its how they've been conditioned. For others though, its downright selfish and completely illogical to expect TI level service at every event. Not comparable. Why? There is a lot more money involved now. A lot more. Who actually cares about back in the days? This isn't back in the days, this is now. This is no longer just a gaming get together where a couple of nerds get together to see who is the best. It has now become a professional style event where people make this THEIR CAREER. There are some big money sponsors involved now and there is quite a lot of cash moneys flowing hands. It's getting the point where you expect a minimum level of service to the players because it's SUPPOSED to be a professional event. Granted, EE sometimes bitches about things that aren't important, but most of the time he actually has legitimate complaints that should be rectified for any tournament with that high of a prize pool. Sound cancellation is an ABSOLUTE priority that no tournament seems to understand. The translation issue is absolutely absurd by this point. Even a relatively minor issue like the private wash room actually has legitimacy behind it. Pro players on high tier teams are getting to the point where they can't leave their areas without being hounded by fifty some odd people just to go take a piss. How would you like it if you have a huge stressful event coming up and people just aren't going to leave you alone? Even if you think they owe it to the fans to be at the fan's "beck and call" 24/7 I don't think you really want to talk to a guy that straight blows you off because he simply has other more important things on his mind. That's not fun for anyone. People rag on these pro gamers for bitching about "living the dream" but it honestly seems like it would be stressful as all hell. This is a job, one they have chosen yes, but with that there comes a level of professionalism that you expect from the events you attend. Most of the time EE's complaints seem pretty legitimate considering there are hundreds of thousands of people watching and probably at least that much money floating around. That being said NS had some decent points too. The scene is still growing etc etc...but really some sort of minor regulation needs to start happening. When this much money is on the line simple things like sound issues, computer issues/backups, and translators really need to be taken care of. There is just no excuse for that any more. Think you misunderstood me. This isn't a call out for players to "man up" or anything like that. Its merely an illustration of our shifting expectations that have jumped radically over the last 3-4 years. Obviously standards are higher now and should be higher. Things like working computers, professional translators and appropriate noise cancelation are a few things that are vital - no one will argue the latter more than me because at the core this is still a competition and there needs to be an even playing field. That being said, as I spoke to, some expectations just aren't realistic. You just aren't going to have limo service to and from events. There probably isn't going to be catered food all over. Even if an event organizer has everything perfectly planned, things will always invariably occur during the event that need to be addressed. No one is denying organizers can do more to improve the experience, both for players and live spectators. But let's not knee jerk every time an event has one or two negative qualities. Speaking about Starladder in particular, this was the first time they've had the finals at Dreamhack. Invariably they learned a few things if they decide to host the event there again.
Who expects limo service or catering?
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Ohhhh yissss..... BOOOOOOOOOOMMMM! in yo face! Best response ever.
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As far as I remember, most of the things EE has complained about have been very closely related to the actual competition. Sound cancelling on stage, bad computers, bad chairs, bad tables, no restrooms in the player area which makes it impossible to just think about your game if you have to go there before or between games, admins not knowing how to answer tournament related questions, no practice computers for the players, etc. I may be wrong, but at least I don't remember seeing anyone make a big fuss about the hotel they stay in, the food they have at the hotel or at the venue, the transportation between hotel and venue, having not enough sofas or tv's in the player lounge, or whatever else there may be. Certainly people have complimented if the hotel has been nice, but I haven't really seen people talk about all that "out of the game" stuff negatively. Maybe I am wrong or maybe someone has complained about all sorts of stuff behind the scenes, but this is my impression.
I don't really understand why some people continue to make it sound like EE or other players want people to carry their luggage for them, bring them fresh fruits before their chauffeur comes in to drive them to the venue in a limo. Of course some of the stuff is not that easily fixed by organizers and depends on their location, budget, etc., but still my point is that the concentration of these complaints seems to be strongly related to making sure that all the teams playing have a chance to play the best they can.
Some of the things are absolute necessities. It's hard to play without working computers, and the problems with sound cancelling may provide one team a rather unfair advantage. Admins should know what is going on with their own tournament. Having proper chairs and tables in all tournaments would be nice, but this is more of a comfort thing and not an absolute necessity unless the chairs are breaking when you sit on them or something. I would assume in most places the chairs and tables are at least bearable even if they are not good. Practice computers for players would also be ideal, but that depends a lot on space available and maybe even the budget the tournament has. Bathroom in the player area would also make things much more convenient (and possibly even help organizers keep their schedule if the players don't have to walk through a crowd to use a toilet), but is highly dependent on the location. But anyway all of these things seem to be very far away from having "unreasonable" demands like each team having their own servant who gets them foods and drinks.
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I do like some points NS has made.
Pros have their own right of picking which tournament to take. If you don't like one organizer and cannot accept what they provide, just don't attend. C9 has already turn down a lot of tournaments, and it is fine.
Yes, pros should be taken good care of during the tournaments, but most tournament organizers don't know what the teams want. Take the Chinese tournaments for instance, they are bad sometimes just because most Chinese players don't have the high maintenance like EE or some other western teams. And the organizers didn't expect some of the requirements from them and wasn't prepared for this.
I believe in most case, teams have the rights to make requirements before the tournaments starts. If it is really not acceptable, then just don't attend, leave the space open for the others. Lots of teams are look for a major tournament debut.
So teams and pros should make their own decisions about which tournaments to attend. They need to find their own place between attending enough tournaments to keep their popularity and making themselves comfortable.
Don't just go to every tournament with big prize pool and then complain, this doesn't help the scene at all. Only by this way, organizers would realize the prize pool, hats and tickets are not the only things that matter.
And plz, EE, complain next time after you win a tournament, this will make you points slightly more convincing.
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no twerkbabouska's no c9, ezpz!
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On April 30 2015 11:03 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 09:56 greebosnabble wrote:On April 30 2015 09:51 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 09:50 greebosnabble wrote: It's not like NS is an angel when it comes to complaints either. After TI4, he claimed that MVP Phoenix looked at their private match histories on computers in the player lounge when they were afk, without proof of course. That's a much more serious unproven accusation than anything that EE's done. I'm curious how these two things are even remotely related but it's all good. He's telling EE and others to "shut up sissies", when he blamed his loss to MVP on unethical behavior without any proof. That's much worse whining than what EE's doing -- NS is a huge hypocrite. just because he's a hypocrite doesn't make him wrong. lol im glad someone knows this
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On April 30 2015 15:53 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 15:33 bagels21 wrote:On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier. I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did. The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol) I disagree with the volume/pitch of a lot of whines in this category from a lot of players AND I think Eternal Envy is a poor spokesperson for professionalism AND I don't buy the accusations of hypocrisy from NS based on what people have presented. Internet Arguing 101 says "accuse people of ad hominem whenever possible" but it's not automatically invalid to discuss the messenger. Does Envy's lack of professionalism mean he can't be right about TOs? No, obviously not. But he's less likely to because he has no fucking clue what it's like trying to meet the expectations he seems to have. No clue. There is always room for improvement in TOs and criticism should go to this end (unless the organizers are straight crooked or otherwise insincere in their attempt to put on a good tournament). Some LANs have LOTS of room for improvement even with the REALITY of what people want and what can be done taken into account. But the fact that the way that this is approached is frequently wrong is true. Envy can take some fucking time to format his goddamned posts rather than just drop his words from heaven and expect that people will wade through it because he is Envy (very professional of him). It's also true that there is a rising tide of players who are getting a little sick of the prima-donna-level expectations of some of these players who take a childish attitude about shit getting fucked up. Henry Rollins: Show nested quote +Listen to the stage manager and get on stage when they tell you to. No one has time for the rock star act. None of the techs backstage care if you're David Bowie or the milkman. When you act like a jerk, they are completely unimpressed with the infantile display that you might think comes with your dubious status. They were there hours before you building the stage, and they will be there hours after you leave tearing it down. They should get your salary, and you should get theirs. Does this perfectly apply? No. But it does apply. And it's going to apply more and more without reality checks from inside the pro player community.
What a bunch of irrelevant, asinine bullshit.
NS (and in general some pro player's responses) can be summarized as - "Hey look at how hard we had, so fuck you for wanting better". Its almost on the same level as Marco demanding respect because he, quote , "went to prison.". Absolute third rate logic.
Not even one of the things Envy mentioned are directly related to his personal comfort. Every single thing goes towards directly improving the standards and quality of the tournament.
Oh look, he wants a restroom that is not swarmed by fans when he goes to the restroom during the middle of a BO3, how blue blooded of him. Witness his greed as he asks for a better practice area, because fuck practice right guys? Look at his temerity for demanding better noise cancellation and sound setup. God forbid he ask for pre-arranged, professional translators. Burn the heretic. because these things didn't exist in the past and status quo is the best way forward amirite ? Lets excuse all this incompetent, poorly planned bullshit from organizers and blame Envy instead because he isn't exactly Shakespeare when it comes to writing blogs.
Teams will be more than willing to accept a prize pool reduced by 15-20k dollars as long as these things are taken care of. They will be more than happy to.
But hey lets forgo all the logic and reasoning, because fuck Envy of course.
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What a bunch of irrelevant, asinine bullshit. K
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On May 01 2015 08:10 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2015 15:53 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 15:33 bagels21 wrote:On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier. I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did. The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol) I disagree with the volume/pitch of a lot of whines in this category from a lot of players AND I think Eternal Envy is a poor spokesperson for professionalism AND I don't buy the accusations of hypocrisy from NS based on what people have presented. Internet Arguing 101 says "accuse people of ad hominem whenever possible" but it's not automatically invalid to discuss the messenger. Does Envy's lack of professionalism mean he can't be right about TOs? No, obviously not. But he's less likely to because he has no fucking clue what it's like trying to meet the expectations he seems to have. No clue. There is always room for improvement in TOs and criticism should go to this end (unless the organizers are straight crooked or otherwise insincere in their attempt to put on a good tournament). Some LANs have LOTS of room for improvement even with the REALITY of what people want and what can be done taken into account. But the fact that the way that this is approached is frequently wrong is true. Envy can take some fucking time to format his goddamned posts rather than just drop his words from heaven and expect that people will wade through it because he is Envy (very professional of him). It's also true that there is a rising tide of players who are getting a little sick of the prima-donna-level expectations of some of these players who take a childish attitude about shit getting fucked up. Henry Rollins: Listen to the stage manager and get on stage when they tell you to. No one has time for the rock star act. None of the techs backstage care if you're David Bowie or the milkman. When you act like a jerk, they are completely unimpressed with the infantile display that you might think comes with your dubious status. They were there hours before you building the stage, and they will be there hours after you leave tearing it down. They should get your salary, and you should get theirs. Does this perfectly apply? No. But it does apply. And it's going to apply more and more without reality checks from inside the pro player community. What a bunch of irrelevant, asinine bullshit. NS (and in general some pro player's responses) can be summarized as - "Hey look at how hard we had, so fuck you for wanting better". Its almost on the same level as Marco demanding respect because he, quote , "went to prison.". Absolute third rate logic. Not even one of the things Envy mentioned are directly related to his personal comfort. Every single thing goes towards directly improving the standards and quality of the tournament. Oh look, he wants a restroom that is not swarmed by fans when he goes to the restroom during the middle of a BO3, how blue blooded of him. Witness his greed as he asks for a better practice area, because fuck practice right guys? Look at his temerity for demanding better noise cancellation and sound setup. God forbid he ask for pre-arranged, professional translators. Burn the heretic. because these things didn't exist in the past and status quo is the best way forward amirite ? Lets excuse all this incompetent, poorly planned bullshit from organizers and blame Envy instead because he isn't exactly Shakespeare when it comes to writing blogs. Teams will be more than willing to accept a prize pool reduced by 15-20k dollars as long as these things are taken care of. They will be more than happy to. But hey lets forgo all the logic and reasoning, because fuck Envy of course. if i read most of your statement, its you using 3 rate logic (just to use your words) you exaggerate everything to a level that is simply ridiculous :D
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On May 01 2015 11:04 MotherOfRunes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 08:10 Piledriver wrote:On April 30 2015 15:53 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 15:33 bagels21 wrote:On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier. I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did. The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol) I disagree with the volume/pitch of a lot of whines in this category from a lot of players AND I think Eternal Envy is a poor spokesperson for professionalism AND I don't buy the accusations of hypocrisy from NS based on what people have presented. Internet Arguing 101 says "accuse people of ad hominem whenever possible" but it's not automatically invalid to discuss the messenger. Does Envy's lack of professionalism mean he can't be right about TOs? No, obviously not. But he's less likely to because he has no fucking clue what it's like trying to meet the expectations he seems to have. No clue. There is always room for improvement in TOs and criticism should go to this end (unless the organizers are straight crooked or otherwise insincere in their attempt to put on a good tournament). Some LANs have LOTS of room for improvement even with the REALITY of what people want and what can be done taken into account. But the fact that the way that this is approached is frequently wrong is true. Envy can take some fucking time to format his goddamned posts rather than just drop his words from heaven and expect that people will wade through it because he is Envy (very professional of him). It's also true that there is a rising tide of players who are getting a little sick of the prima-donna-level expectations of some of these players who take a childish attitude about shit getting fucked up. Henry Rollins: Listen to the stage manager and get on stage when they tell you to. No one has time for the rock star act. None of the techs backstage care if you're David Bowie or the milkman. When you act like a jerk, they are completely unimpressed with the infantile display that you might think comes with your dubious status. They were there hours before you building the stage, and they will be there hours after you leave tearing it down. They should get your salary, and you should get theirs. Does this perfectly apply? No. But it does apply. And it's going to apply more and more without reality checks from inside the pro player community. What a bunch of irrelevant, asinine bullshit. NS (and in general some pro player's responses) can be summarized as - "Hey look at how hard we had, so fuck you for wanting better". Its almost on the same level as Marco demanding respect because he, quote , "went to prison.". Absolute third rate logic. Not even one of the things Envy mentioned are directly related to his personal comfort. Every single thing goes towards directly improving the standards and quality of the tournament. Oh look, he wants a restroom that is not swarmed by fans when he goes to the restroom during the middle of a BO3, how blue blooded of him. Witness his greed as he asks for a better practice area, because fuck practice right guys? Look at his temerity for demanding better noise cancellation and sound setup. God forbid he ask for pre-arranged, professional translators. Burn the heretic. because these things didn't exist in the past and status quo is the best way forward amirite ? Lets excuse all this incompetent, poorly planned bullshit from organizers and blame Envy instead because he isn't exactly Shakespeare when it comes to writing blogs. Teams will be more than willing to accept a prize pool reduced by 15-20k dollars as long as these things are taken care of. They will be more than happy to. But hey lets forgo all the logic and reasoning, because fuck Envy of course. if i read most of your statement, its you using 3 rate logic (just to use your words) you exaggerate everything to a level that is simply ridiculous :D
? Wut?
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On May 01 2015 13:39 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 11:04 MotherOfRunes wrote:On May 01 2015 08:10 Piledriver wrote:On April 30 2015 15:53 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 15:33 bagels21 wrote:On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier. I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did. The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol) I disagree with the volume/pitch of a lot of whines in this category from a lot of players AND I think Eternal Envy is a poor spokesperson for professionalism AND I don't buy the accusations of hypocrisy from NS based on what people have presented. Internet Arguing 101 says "accuse people of ad hominem whenever possible" but it's not automatically invalid to discuss the messenger. Does Envy's lack of professionalism mean he can't be right about TOs? No, obviously not. But he's less likely to because he has no fucking clue what it's like trying to meet the expectations he seems to have. No clue. There is always room for improvement in TOs and criticism should go to this end (unless the organizers are straight crooked or otherwise insincere in their attempt to put on a good tournament). Some LANs have LOTS of room for improvement even with the REALITY of what people want and what can be done taken into account. But the fact that the way that this is approached is frequently wrong is true. Envy can take some fucking time to format his goddamned posts rather than just drop his words from heaven and expect that people will wade through it because he is Envy (very professional of him). It's also true that there is a rising tide of players who are getting a little sick of the prima-donna-level expectations of some of these players who take a childish attitude about shit getting fucked up. Henry Rollins: Listen to the stage manager and get on stage when they tell you to. No one has time for the rock star act. None of the techs backstage care if you're David Bowie or the milkman. When you act like a jerk, they are completely unimpressed with the infantile display that you might think comes with your dubious status. They were there hours before you building the stage, and they will be there hours after you leave tearing it down. They should get your salary, and you should get theirs. Does this perfectly apply? No. But it does apply. And it's going to apply more and more without reality checks from inside the pro player community. What a bunch of irrelevant, asinine bullshit. NS (and in general some pro player's responses) can be summarized as - "Hey look at how hard we had, so fuck you for wanting better". Its almost on the same level as Marco demanding respect because he, quote , "went to prison.". Absolute third rate logic. Not even one of the things Envy mentioned are directly related to his personal comfort. Every single thing goes towards directly improving the standards and quality of the tournament. Oh look, he wants a restroom that is not swarmed by fans when he goes to the restroom during the middle of a BO3, how blue blooded of him. Witness his greed as he asks for a better practice area, because fuck practice right guys? Look at his temerity for demanding better noise cancellation and sound setup. God forbid he ask for pre-arranged, professional translators. Burn the heretic. because these things didn't exist in the past and status quo is the best way forward amirite ? Lets excuse all this incompetent, poorly planned bullshit from organizers and blame Envy instead because he isn't exactly Shakespeare when it comes to writing blogs. Teams will be more than willing to accept a prize pool reduced by 15-20k dollars as long as these things are taken care of. They will be more than happy to. But hey lets forgo all the logic and reasoning, because fuck Envy of course. if i read most of your statement, its you using 3 rate logic (just to use your words) you exaggerate everything to a level that is simply ridiculous :D ? Wut? Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post.
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Can't offer a reasonable argument, attack credibility instead. OK whatever floats your boat. Just don't pretend that you're actually providing a rational argument going forward.
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On May 01 2015 14:46 Piledriver wrote: Can't offer a reasonable argument, attack credibility instead. OK whatever floats your boat. Just don't pretend that you're actually providing a rational argument going forward. I was actually really inspired to argue with you after you called my post a pile of shit but then I got le tired.
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On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc).
since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up
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On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card?
Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face.
And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not.
But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds.
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On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 13:39 Piledriver wrote:On May 01 2015 11:04 MotherOfRunes wrote:On May 01 2015 08:10 Piledriver wrote:On April 30 2015 15:53 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 15:33 bagels21 wrote:On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier. I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did. The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol) I disagree with the volume/pitch of a lot of whines in this category from a lot of players AND I think Eternal Envy is a poor spokesperson for professionalism AND I don't buy the accusations of hypocrisy from NS based on what people have presented. Internet Arguing 101 says "accuse people of ad hominem whenever possible" but it's not automatically invalid to discuss the messenger. Does Envy's lack of professionalism mean he can't be right about TOs? No, obviously not. But he's less likely to because he has no fucking clue what it's like trying to meet the expectations he seems to have. No clue. There is always room for improvement in TOs and criticism should go to this end (unless the organizers are straight crooked or otherwise insincere in their attempt to put on a good tournament). Some LANs have LOTS of room for improvement even with the REALITY of what people want and what can be done taken into account. But the fact that the way that this is approached is frequently wrong is true. Envy can take some fucking time to format his goddamned posts rather than just drop his words from heaven and expect that people will wade through it because he is Envy (very professional of him). It's also true that there is a rising tide of players who are getting a little sick of the prima-donna-level expectations of some of these players who take a childish attitude about shit getting fucked up. Henry Rollins: Listen to the stage manager and get on stage when they tell you to. No one has time for the rock star act. None of the techs backstage care if you're David Bowie or the milkman. When you act like a jerk, they are completely unimpressed with the infantile display that you might think comes with your dubious status. They were there hours before you building the stage, and they will be there hours after you leave tearing it down. They should get your salary, and you should get theirs. Does this perfectly apply? No. But it does apply. And it's going to apply more and more without reality checks from inside the pro player community. What a bunch of irrelevant, asinine bullshit. NS (and in general some pro player's responses) can be summarized as - "Hey look at how hard we had, so fuck you for wanting better". Its almost on the same level as Marco demanding respect because he, quote , "went to prison.". Absolute third rate logic. Not even one of the things Envy mentioned are directly related to his personal comfort. Every single thing goes towards directly improving the standards and quality of the tournament. Oh look, he wants a restroom that is not swarmed by fans when he goes to the restroom during the middle of a BO3, how blue blooded of him. Witness his greed as he asks for a better practice area, because fuck practice right guys? Look at his temerity for demanding better noise cancellation and sound setup. God forbid he ask for pre-arranged, professional translators. Burn the heretic. because these things didn't exist in the past and status quo is the best way forward amirite ? Lets excuse all this incompetent, poorly planned bullshit from organizers and blame Envy instead because he isn't exactly Shakespeare when it comes to writing blogs. Teams will be more than willing to accept a prize pool reduced by 15-20k dollars as long as these things are taken care of. They will be more than happy to. But hey lets forgo all the logic and reasoning, because fuck Envy of course. if i read most of your statement, its you using 3 rate logic (just to use your words) you exaggerate everything to a level that is simply ridiculous :D ? Wut? Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way ---> Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post.
Distasteful comment.
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Some tournaments have issues that don't should happen (Network, PC's, Delays, incompetent staff, Sound issues...).
Some Players have expectations that seem a bit over the top (specific translator for each Team? Are you 5 year olds that need a babysitter or what? Seperate bathroom? If the venue allows it, sure... But if not thats hardly blameworthy. Catering? Just bring your own Food.. WTF...)
Your a Dota Player, not Madonna...
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Agree a 100%, especially if you think how lucky some of these people are.
(Just like sports) you are being paid to play what you love the most, and most of all ? You are succesful ! (And the pay is not wvwn bad)... thats a luxury only a handful of people have, but some just dont realize it.
I mean Starladder even had to move to another country (!) and they even have to pay the planes and stuff ffs
And by the way... I may be wrong, but i think it should be the teams themself that pays the travels and hotels, NOT THE TOURNAMENT !
EE should cry to Cloud9 about hotels and stuff, not starladder.
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On May 01 2015 21:03 Faruko wrote: Agree a 100%, especially if you think how lucky some of these people are.
(Just like sports) you are being paid to play what you love the most, and most of all ? You are succesful ! (And the pay is not wvwn bad)... thats a luxury only a handful of people have, but some just dont realize it.
I mean Starladder even had to move to another country (!) and they even have to pay the planes and stuff ffs
And by the way... I may be wrong, but i think it should be the teams themself that pays the travels and hotels, NOT THE TOURNAMENT !
EE should cry to Cloud9 about hotels and stuff, not starladder.
that was the case 3 years ago but there was little reason for teams to get 5 players across the globe, so lans were scarce and often filled with last minute local teams or even random stacks. it might be different now though.
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On May 01 2015 21:03 Faruko wrote: Agree a 100%, especially if you think how lucky some of these people are.
(Just like sports) you are being paid to play what you love the most, and most of all ? You are succesful ! (And the pay is not wvwn bad)... thats a luxury only a handful of people have, but some just dont realize it.
I mean Starladder even had to move to another country (!) and they even have to pay the planes and stuff ffs
And by the way... I may be wrong, but i think it should be the teams themself that pays the travels and hotels, NOT THE TOURNAMENT !
EE should cry to Cloud9 about hotels and stuff, not starladder.
EE said starladder was fine...
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On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds. no ty, i tell it like it is. you dont like it thats your problem, dont give me your life story
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On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds.
Lol you're here and not on NADota because the mods here mod and people don't just post inside jokes all the time.
Let's be honest, you've been warned about your anti-EE comments and I'm fine with it but you don't need to go all hard on TL just because you think some of the guys who have responded to your posts are idiots.
Your favorite players didn't even go to college or dropped out too so I don't see why that's relevant in critiquing his posts. (Look, I can play your game too) I avoided answering your first response to me because I didn't want to get into an argument about ad hominem (yes I think it's an overused response, but it's relevant in this thread. Look when Aui responded and basically 100% supported Envy, nobody said a peep and instead totally agreed with him)
Just because he doesn't post the most well written blog posts doesn't mean he didn't know how to write. Someone who averaged an A in the best Engineering program in Canada is likely not an idiot. The posts are blogs and that's his style. These aren't longform articles posted on C9's website. It's his style and he came up through TL posting that way (you can look up his old posts) If anything it's a wink to who he once was.
Anyhow this is besides the point. NS is right in some sense(EE should be bitching behind closed doors), but he's 100% exaggerating Envy's claims(the hotel comment was literally 1 point in 15). More professionalism is good and it seems that EE's efforts have worked and may continue to work. You might not think he's the best spokesperson for what he believes in but these tournaments clearly care and so do other players and organizers. Their has been real change every time he's posted (remember BTS before his critical comments and then their performance afterwards). I-League before and after his comments etc.
Let's limit the mud flinging
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On May 02 2015 05:46 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds. Lol you're here and not on NADota because the mods here mod and people don't just post inside jokes all the time. Let's be honest, you've been warned about your anti-EE comments and I'm fine with it but you don't need to go all hard on TL just because you think some of the guys who have responded to your posts are idiots. Your favorite players didn't even go to college or dropped out too so I don't see why that's relevant in critiquing his posts. (Look, I can play your game too) I avoided answering your first response to me because I didn't want to get into an argument about ad hominem (yes I think it's an overused response, but it's relevant in this thread. Look when Aui responded and basically 100% supported Envy, nobody said a peep and instead totally agreed with him) Just because he doesn't post the most well written blog posts doesn't mean he didn't know how to write. Someone who averaged an A in the best Engineering program in Canada is likely not an idiot. Anyhow this is besides the point. NS is right in some sense, but he's 100% exaggerating Envy's claims(the hotel comment was literally 1 point in 15). Some professionalism is good and it seems that EE's efforts have worked and may continue to work. Yes, I'm here because it's moderated here and I like that, not because I need that. The implication was that I don't have the balls to say anything against Envy out where people are reading it because I'm afraid of teh flamez or something which is actually super-hilarious if you know me at all, on or offline.
And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice:
1) When someone was talking trash to me and I talked trash back and shit got REAL SENSITIVE all of a sudden and I didn't back down because I underestimated what babies some people are about Envy-kun.
2) When someone misread something I said as calling Envy autistic, which is a myth that will never die I guess despite it standing up to basically no scrutiny. But I don't blame the mod for doing that since I'd rather they have a trigger finger about all the autism bullshit than having that idiocy all over these boards.
And I've said a LOT more about Envy than that around here, as anyone who follows me around the board being mad I'm saying anything about Envy (read: a lot of people apparently) knows. So don't blow up my Envy-related interactions with the mods into something that it isn't.
I'm not saying Envy is dumb. I'm saying he's a shitty writer, and I've said before, and will say again, that until he takes his communication seriously anything legitimate he has to say is going to be reduced in impact because of how he says it and what context he puts it in.
Example: when I saw there was a new Envy Posts About A Tournament post I groaned a little. Not because ewwwww, Eternal Envy is taking up bits on the internet, how will I survive this -- I can just not read it. I groaned because I knew I'd want to read it but he's a shitty writer with a poor filter ("stream-of-consciousness" is SPOT ON) and it was going to be a chore. A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have.
Once you get through the unedited word salad, that is.
People attacking his writing has a purpose. Anyone who thinks tournaments are perfect or that nothing Envy writes is worth reading can fuck themselves. But his terrible editing combined with his lack of perspective makes it other people's jobs to dig through all his observations and make some kind of point out of it and figure out what's actually important. Anyone who knows anything about persuasive writing knows how terrible this is for the purpose of actually improving the scene.
I don't like Envy. I make no bones about it. I laugh at sadenvy.gif in its various iterations. I take amusement in him living up to his reputation in games even when I'm rooting for his team. But so what? His fans need to calm the fuck down about it every time I post about him. I'm not the guy dropping into C9 threads posting "KICK ENVY WIN TI5" and shit like that. 99% of the time I'm making real observations you can agree with or disagree with.
Controversial shit like:
1) It's a bad idea to give him absolute roster control 2) There's no guarantee C9 would disband if Envy left
These are two points his fans freaked out about in recent months. You'll forgive me if the fucks I might have had have run out.
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On May 02 2015 06:17 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 05:46 bagels21 wrote:On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds. Lol you're here and not on NADota because the mods here mod and people don't just post inside jokes all the time. Let's be honest, you've been warned about your anti-EE comments and I'm fine with it but you don't need to go all hard on TL just because you think some of the guys who have responded to your posts are idiots. Your favorite players didn't even go to college or dropped out too so I don't see why that's relevant in critiquing his posts. (Look, I can play your game too) I avoided answering your first response to me because I didn't want to get into an argument about ad hominem (yes I think it's an overused response, but it's relevant in this thread. Look when Aui responded and basically 100% supported Envy, nobody said a peep and instead totally agreed with him) Just because he doesn't post the most well written blog posts doesn't mean he didn't know how to write. Someone who averaged an A in the best Engineering program in Canada is likely not an idiot. Anyhow this is besides the point. NS is right in some sense, but he's 100% exaggerating Envy's claims(the hotel comment was literally 1 point in 15). Some professionalism is good and it seems that EE's efforts have worked and may continue to work. Yes, I'm here because it's moderated here and I like that, not because I need that. The implication was that I don't have the balls to say anything against Envy out where people are reading it because I'm afraid of teh flamez or something which is actually super-hilarious if you know me at all, on or offline. And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice: 1) When someone was talking trash to me and I talked trash back and shit got REAL SENSITIVE all of a sudden and I didn't back down because I underestimated what babies some people are about Envy-kun. 2) When someone misread something I said as calling Envy autistic, which is a myth that will never die I guess despite it standing up to basically no scrutiny. But I don't blame the mod for doing that since I'd rather they have a trigger finger about all the autism bullshit than having that idiocy all over these boards. And I've said a LOT more about Envy than that around here, as anyone who follows me around the board being mad I'm saying anything about Envy (read: a lot of people apparently) knows. So don't blow up my Envy-related interactions with the mods into something that it isn't. I'm not saying Envy is dumb. I'm saying he's a shitty writer, and I've said before, and will say again, that until he takes his communication seriously anything legitimate he has to say is going to be reduced in impact because of how he says it and what context he puts it in. Example: when I saw there was a new Envy Posts About A Tournament post I groaned a little. Not because ewwwww, Eternal Envy is taking up bits on the internet, how will I survive this -- I can just not read it. I groaned because I knew I'd want to read it but he's a shitty writer with a poor filter ("stream-of-consciousness" is SPOT ON) and it was going to be a chore. A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have. Once you get through the unedited word salad, that is. People attacking his writing has a purpose. Anyone who thinks tournaments are perfect or that nothing Envy writes is worth reading can fuck themselves. But his terrible editing combined with his lack of perspective makes it other people's jobs to dig through all his observations and make some kind of point out of it and figure out what's actually important. Anyone who knows anything about persuasive writing knows how terrible this is for the purpose of actually improving the scene. I don't like Envy. I make no bones about it. I laugh at sadenvy.gif in its various iterations. I take amusement in him living up to his reputation in games even when I'm rooting for his team. But so what? His fans need to calm the fuck down about it every time I post about him. I'm not the guy dropping into C9 threads posting "KICK ENVY WIN TI5" and shit like that. 99% of the time I'm making real observations you can agree with or disagree with. Controversial shit like: 1) It's a bad idea to give him absolute roster control 2) There's no guarantee C9 would disband if Envy left These are two points his fans freaked out about in recent months. You'll forgive me if the fucks I might have had have run out. "And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice:"
I didn't intend to but your post is pretty much challenging people to do so lol.
"A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have." - I mean that's all their is to it. We agree on that fundamental point. I don't intend on arguing about C9 on a blog, but we can agree to disagree about that part. I continue to respond to you vs. other EE haters because I think you're smart and reasonable to some extent and yes I appreciate the fact that you don't go into C9 or EE threads to continue the "EE terrible carry kick pls" theme that has occurred for years,
Anyhow, if "freak out" means argue with you, it happens. That's what TL fandom is all about lol. (You've seen it yourself with Na'Vi and Alliance threads that inevitably descend into this when discussing rosters.)
In the end, yes I wish he wrote better, but it's worked and will likely continue to work for him. Let's get this discussion back to NS's blog lol
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On May 02 2015 06:41 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 06:17 FHDH wrote:On May 02 2015 05:46 bagels21 wrote:On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds. Lol you're here and not on NADota because the mods here mod and people don't just post inside jokes all the time. Let's be honest, you've been warned about your anti-EE comments and I'm fine with it but you don't need to go all hard on TL just because you think some of the guys who have responded to your posts are idiots. Your favorite players didn't even go to college or dropped out too so I don't see why that's relevant in critiquing his posts. (Look, I can play your game too) I avoided answering your first response to me because I didn't want to get into an argument about ad hominem (yes I think it's an overused response, but it's relevant in this thread. Look when Aui responded and basically 100% supported Envy, nobody said a peep and instead totally agreed with him) Just because he doesn't post the most well written blog posts doesn't mean he didn't know how to write. Someone who averaged an A in the best Engineering program in Canada is likely not an idiot. Anyhow this is besides the point. NS is right in some sense, but he's 100% exaggerating Envy's claims(the hotel comment was literally 1 point in 15). Some professionalism is good and it seems that EE's efforts have worked and may continue to work. Yes, I'm here because it's moderated here and I like that, not because I need that. The implication was that I don't have the balls to say anything against Envy out where people are reading it because I'm afraid of teh flamez or something which is actually super-hilarious if you know me at all, on or offline. And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice: 1) When someone was talking trash to me and I talked trash back and shit got REAL SENSITIVE all of a sudden and I didn't back down because I underestimated what babies some people are about Envy-kun. 2) When someone misread something I said as calling Envy autistic, which is a myth that will never die I guess despite it standing up to basically no scrutiny. But I don't blame the mod for doing that since I'd rather they have a trigger finger about all the autism bullshit than having that idiocy all over these boards. And I've said a LOT more about Envy than that around here, as anyone who follows me around the board being mad I'm saying anything about Envy (read: a lot of people apparently) knows. So don't blow up my Envy-related interactions with the mods into something that it isn't. I'm not saying Envy is dumb. I'm saying he's a shitty writer, and I've said before, and will say again, that until he takes his communication seriously anything legitimate he has to say is going to be reduced in impact because of how he says it and what context he puts it in. Example: when I saw there was a new Envy Posts About A Tournament post I groaned a little. Not because ewwwww, Eternal Envy is taking up bits on the internet, how will I survive this -- I can just not read it. I groaned because I knew I'd want to read it but he's a shitty writer with a poor filter ("stream-of-consciousness" is SPOT ON) and it was going to be a chore. A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have. Once you get through the unedited word salad, that is. People attacking his writing has a purpose. Anyone who thinks tournaments are perfect or that nothing Envy writes is worth reading can fuck themselves. But his terrible editing combined with his lack of perspective makes it other people's jobs to dig through all his observations and make some kind of point out of it and figure out what's actually important. Anyone who knows anything about persuasive writing knows how terrible this is for the purpose of actually improving the scene. I don't like Envy. I make no bones about it. I laugh at sadenvy.gif in its various iterations. I take amusement in him living up to his reputation in games even when I'm rooting for his team. But so what? His fans need to calm the fuck down about it every time I post about him. I'm not the guy dropping into C9 threads posting "KICK ENVY WIN TI5" and shit like that. 99% of the time I'm making real observations you can agree with or disagree with. Controversial shit like: 1) It's a bad idea to give him absolute roster control 2) There's no guarantee C9 would disband if Envy left These are two points his fans freaked out about in recent months. You'll forgive me if the fucks I might have had have run out. "And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice:" I didn't intend to but your post is pretty much challenging people to do so lol. "A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have." - I mean that's all their is to it. We agree on that fundamental point. I don't intend on arguing about C9 on a blog, but we can agree to disagree about that part. I continue to respond to you vs. other EE haters because I think you're smart and reasonable to some extent and yes I appreciate the fact that you don't go into C9 or EE threads to continue the "EE terrible carry kick pls" theme that has occurred for years, Anyhow, if "freak out" means argue with you, it happens. That's what TL fandom is all about lol. (You've seen it yourself with Na'Vi and Alliance threads that inevitably descend into this when discussing rosters.) In the end, yes I wish he wrote better, but it's worked and will likely continue to work for him. Let's get this discussion back to NS's blog lol Well I mean "freak out" as in act like I'm saying shit I'm not and having some pretty extreme reactions. I'm still scratching my head how anyone can argue with a statement like "C9 disbanding without EE is not automatic" but anyway.
That said, I'm perfectly fine with bringing this thread back around to the relative merits of these blogs vs. my relationship with the board's C9 fans.
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I agree with NS in that we have to appreciate what we have now, disagree with his sarcastic, patronizing tone, and offer a possible explanation.
I've been an avid Dota fan since before 6.0 and have seen what NS highlights: absolutely shittily organized tournaments that were, in many respects, all that the scene had. Professional play was reserved only for BW in Korea.
The problem is that with the advent of Dota 2, so many players and people entered the scene. Valve, a large company, came into the picture. Suddenly, money poured into the Dota scene at an uncontrolled rate. However, a lot of the people who had run things were still there. After all, they had the experience. So you have this influx of money and interest but somehow a slower rate of organizational improvement, which will logically lead to a disparate expectation of what tournament organizers can deliver. I've helped run small tournaments in Dota to huge international debate tournaments and it is never easy. Even when you think you've got all bases covered, there's always something that you miss, and that something will be noticed by someone who will bitch about it.
The key points for envy's blog is his specific criticisms leveled at how tournament organizers should ensure that the actual gameplay (as opposed to the players' own personal psychological health and physical comfort) is taken care of. Soundproofing is the most important issue. Functional computers and decent internet as well. Comfort is important but secondary, and should be given a buget allocation once the basics are covered. Everything else is up to the organizer to determine (ie if the organizers feel that food is very important, then they should customize it based on the team's preference, but if not, just get the same things).
NS I feel was just a bit offended (as old school players usually are) when he saw a relatively new player complain about things that never existed before. He's not in the wrong - we always have to appreciate our roots - but he's also not looking at the salient points envy raised that should be part of the new tournament minimum standard.
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On April 30 2015 13:47 sang wrote: Disregarding NS' own personal shortcomings, he is somewhat right in that a lot of ways that players are big prima donas nowadays.
Remember back to the days of CPL and other tournaments in early 2000s? Metal chairs, flat wooden desks, people standing behind you cheering/shouting as you play. Remember even some of the early MLG's back in 2010-2011 when it was a big deal they had a "players lounge" with 10 computers set aside? Now, players want everything. What your venue doesn't have 50/50 wifi connection? Horrible. No backstage lounge with couches, bean bags and TVs? Terrible. Matches delayed 30 minutes? Worst admins ever.
Some of it isn't completely the players' fault — for the newer ones especially its how they've been conditioned. For others though, its downright selfish and completely illogical to expect TI level service at every event.
Finally, some1 caught NS's idea.
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Neither esports pro players or Pro athletes are "lucky" for they position they are in. Luck is involved but it's not the same kind of luck as winning the lottery.
NS has a point but it's not a productive one. It's built around attacking critics. EE doesn't have a point and just writes a blog about random thoughts (which are what blogs are for). Blogs don't necessarily need a motive.
If NS didn't target EE's post, these two posts are barely related...
Players want working computers not Limos. Translators are a necessity not a luxury for an international LAN.
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This thread reignites my age old question, why does anyone care about really anything EE says?
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EE is missing a point, he is "working" and earning a % of the winnings plus his salary, where most of us just earn the same every month no matter what we do. I would like to see him give his share of the winnings just for the sake of better tournaments.
It is pretty valid to complain about many things he said, not everything. And not the way he did, we will see what he thinks after he organizes a tournament.
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the best thing about the blog is the picture. The rest is summarized by the analogy of eventhebouncy. You shall never stop complaining, even if you knew it was worse 20 years ago. I mean, why the fuck do I see people complain in the QQ thread about playing a game? Shouldn't all of you, who agree with NS and disagree with envy flame the whole QQ thread (including me) for complaining about problems they have in a game nobody forces them to play and many many many people on the planet do not even have the means to enjoy? Of fucking course it's relative compare to times back in the day. Have you ever heard somone complain about you going to the toilet too many times, because back then, they had to go out in the garden to the shithouse? Or to the staircase cause there were no toilets in the flat? Times change and while keeping the past in mind, it's not being a "warmduscher" to demand progress.
On another note, the spectators don't have the insight into neither the organisator's, nor the player's perspective. That changes through such blogs. Sure it is just a piece of the whole picture but nevertheless it's pretty clear, that communication between organisers and participants could, most of the time, be better.
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On May 05 2015 23:42 Artisreal wrote: the best thing about the blog is the picture. The rest is summarized by the analogy of eventhebouncy. You shall never stop complaining, even if you knew it was worse 20 years ago. I mean, why the fuck do I see people complain in the QQ thread about playing a game? Shouldn't all of you, who agree with NS and disagree with envy flame the whole QQ thread (including me) for complaining about problems they have in a game nobody forces them to play and many many many people on the planet do not even have the means to enjoy? Of fucking course it's relative compare to times back in the day. Have you ever heard somone complain about you going to the toilet too many times, because back then, they had to go out in the garden to the shithouse? Or to the staircase cause there were no toilets in the flat? Times change and while keeping the past in mind, it's not being a "warmduscher" to demand progress.
On another note, the spectators don't have the insight into neither the organisator's, nor the player's perspective. That changes through such blogs. Sure it is just a piece of the whole picture but nevertheless it's pretty clear, that communication between organisers and participants could, most of the time, be better.
I agree, without complaining most things would stay the same. Demanding changes can lead to progress, what I don't approve is EE's way of doing things, and how he transmits his thoughts and feelings.
I find funny how people approve EE's actions just because they like what he does. Being a fan does not mean to support the guy through all the shit without even questioning him. For instance, there are people who work on the street all day long, public bathrooms are not everywhere to serve their needs, and if there are, they usually are not in the best of states, but who listen to these guys' needs? Not one soul, and if someone were to hear a complain from them they usually shake it off like they don't matter, why? because not everyone has to deal with someone else's problems. This kind of bias is what make public figures get their way against everything and everyone.
I think a better way to improve the scene for players would be to get involved in the process instead of throwing mud to everyone. OUR way to improve the scene is contributing with bundles and viewership and that kind of stuff.
On another note EE does not have the insight into the organizator's perspective either, as much as we don't have insight into their perspective.
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