In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 288
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BluemoonSC
SoCal7988 Posts
should a kill happen to present itself, the points are there for you to drop into storm hammer but since you're otherwise not using them and don't have a need for them, why put them into something that may or may not be as useful as 2 branches you could get from the shop. problem is, if you put that into the guide, ppl would never do it bc they never read. the box turns yellow and they click it lol think of stats this way - ideally when you hit 8 on a hero, you're expected to have a certain toolkit. if you don't have a spell correctly leveled, you're gonna be stuck with that slightly underlevelled tool kit until you make that large xp jump | ||
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United States4569 Posts
On March 05 2016 03:49 BluemoonSC wrote: the reason you don't take points in storm hammer is because you're hoarding them to dump into cleave when you want the wave to push. that way you can take that farm and clear a jungle camp/stack without missing any lane CS. should a kill happen to present itself, the points are there for you to drop into storm hammer but since you're otherwise not using them and don't have a need for them, why put them into something that may or may not be as useful as 2 branches you could get from the shop. problem is, if you put that into the guide, ppl would never do it bc they never read. the box turns yellow and they click it lol Would something like 2 hammer 2 warcry build be a possible way to make a guide safe build? It'd avoid recommending cleave until 5, gives some minor kill potential if it's there, but still gives you good mid-game farming once you get to 7 or 8. I know it's not really an ideal build for either function (kills or farm), but it seems like a possibly safe split between the two. I guess I don't really know how big the ramifications are if you have cleave 3 at 8 instead of 4. | ||
Verniy
Canada3360 Posts
On March 05 2016 03:59 Logo wrote: I guess I don't really know how big the ramifications are if you have cleave 3 at 8 instead of 4. doing some quick (and probably incorrect) math on it, it seems like having level 4 cleave (66% damage) instead of level 3 cleave (54% damage) means you need 1-2 less autoattacks to kill creeps that you're not hitting directly | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal7988 Posts
so when you talk about lvl 8 builds you're stuck with that build for a long time. forget the skill you like to stick a value point in? hope you can live without it for a bit. assuming that Veriny's math is correct, 1-2 more autoattacks to kill creeps you're not hitting directly means that you're slowing down your farm by several creeps per minute..and that's neglecting ancient stacks which you can take with your ult. personally, I can recall a couple of qop games specifically where I messed up my lvl 8 skill build (2-2-3-1) as opposed to maxing a spell (2-1-4-1). I think there was a sven game where I accidentally took an extra point in his e at lvl 8 bc I dumped my skills too fast and wasn't thinking. played the next game with the 4th level at lvl 8 (1-4-2-1) was the build and I was much speedier. btw, I'd say 1-4-2-1 or 2-4-1-1 is the safest build like we discussed a couple pages back but im not 100% positive without playing the hero more. | ||
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United States4569 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal7988 Posts
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TheYango
United States10886 Posts
On March 05 2016 03:49 BluemoonSC wrote: the reason you don't take points in storm hammer is because you're hoarding them to dump into cleave when you want the wave to push. that way you can take that farm and clear a jungle camp/stack without missing any lane CS. The discussion is about whether you take Hammer 2-4 from 12-14 or if you take Stats. Maxing Cleave > Warcry is a given at this point. I was disputing what Torte said--that Hammer damage is negligible. 75 damage per rank isn't negligible (it's on the high side for AoE nuke scaling), and still usually contributes comparably to a fight compared to +2 All Stats, it's just that it contributes nothing to a farming phase. It's really preference though and depends a fair bit on how the game is playing out. | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany7680 Posts
Core: + Applicable to Support Heroes (e.g. Aghs rushers) & Cores/Carries + More Offensive Item Carriers Support: + Starving Supports/Utility Heroes/Roamers + Meka/Pipe/Defensive Item carriers Offlane: + Initiating Supports + Heroes who need levels, not items + Solo-Offlane oriented Jungle: + To avoid deleting too many guides + Skill/Item Build differentiating Sub-roles (partial split tabs in guides): Middle: Utility (Hard Support) Safe Lane/Offlane will update with personal views - see red for personal views + Show Spoiler [Jan 21 2016] + Unchanged, except for renaming  Abaddon -> Support Ancient Apparition (Lane) -> Support Anti-Mage -> Core Axe (Jungle) Axe (Lane) -> Offlane Bane -> Support Batrider -> Offlane Bloodseeker (Jungle) Bristleback -> Core Broodmother -> Offlane Centaur Warrunner -> Offlane Chaos Knight -> Core Chen -> Jungle Clinkz _> Core Clockwerk -> Offlane Crystal Maiden -> Support Dark Seer -> Offlane Dazzle -> Support Death Prophet -> Core Disruptor -> Support Doom (Jungle) Doom (Lane) -> Core Dragon Knight (Middle) -> Core Drow Ranger -> Core Earthshaker -> Support Earth Spirit (Lane) -> Support Elder Titan (Lane) -> Support Enchantress -> Jungle Enigma -> Jungle Faceless Void -> Offlane Huskar -> Core Invoker -> Core QW IO -> Support Jakiro -> Support Juggernaut -> Core Keeper of the Light -> Support Lich -> Support Lifestealer (Lane) -> Core Lifestealer (Jungle) Lion -> Support Lone Druid (Lane) -> Core  Luna -> Core Lycan (Lane) -> Core Lycan (Jungle) Magnus -> Core Medusa -> Core Meepo -> Core Mirana -> Core Morphling -> Core Naga Siren (Middle) -> Core Nature's Prophet -> Core Necrophos -> Core Night Stalker -> Offlane Nyx Assassin (Lane) -> Support  Ogre Magi -> Support Omniknight -> Support Oracle (Lane) -> Support Outworld Devourer -> Core Phantom Assassin -> Core Phantom Lancer -> Core Phoenix (Lane) -> Support  Puck -> Core Pudge -> Roam Pugna -> Core Queen of Pain -> Core Razor -> Core Riki -> Core Rubick -> Support Sand King -> Support Shadow Demon -> Support Shadow Fiend -> Core Shadow Shaman (Lane) -> Support  Skywrath Mage (Lane) -> Support Slardar -> Offlane Slark (Lane) -> Core  Sniper (Lane) -> Core Spectre -> Core Storm Spirit -> Core Sven -> Core Techies -> Roam Templar Assassin -> Core Terrorblade -> Core Tidehunter -> Offlane Timbersaw -> Offlane Tinker -> Core Treant Protector -> Support Troll Warlord (Lane) -> Core Tusk -> Support Undying -> Offlane Ursa (Jungle) Ursa (Lane) -> Core Vengeful Spirit -> Support Venomancer -> Support Viper -> Core Visage -> Support Warlock (Lane) -> Support Weaver (Lane) -> Core Winter Wyvern -> Support Witch Doctor -> Support Wraith King -> Core Zeus -> CoreMinor changes, usually merging a mid/safelane guide into a core guide  Alchemist (Middle) -> Core Arc Warden (Middle) -> Core Beastmaster (Lane) -> Core Bloodseeker (Lane) -> Core Brewmaster (Middle) -> Core Elder Titan (Middle) -> Core Ember Spirit (Lane) -> Core Gyrocopter (Lane) -> Core Kunkka (Middle) -> Core Legion Commander (Lane) -> Core  Leshrac (Middle) -> Core Lina (Middle) -> Core Nyx Assassin (Middle) -> Core Phoenix (Middle) -> Core Silencer (Middle) -> Core Spirit Breaker -> Roam Tiny (Middle) -> Core Warlock (Middle) -> Core Windranger (Lane) -> CoreMajor changes, generally turning a spare mid/safe guide into a support Arc Warden (Lane) -> Support Bounty Hunter -> Roam Kunkka (Lane) -> Support Leshrac (Lane) -> Support Lina (Lane) -> Support Legion Commander (Middle) -> Jungle Naga Siren (Lane) -> Support Silencer (Lane) -> Support Windranger (Middle) -> SupportDelete: redundant guides from mid/safe merge with no other use (check pairs and delete the one with least subscribers) Bloodseeker (Middle) Brewmaster (Lane) Dragon Knight (Lane) Ember Spirit (Middle) Slark (Middle) Sniper (Middle) Tiny (Lane) Troll Warlord (Middle) Weaver (Middle)Probably delete: guides that could either be repurposed or ditched, plus some egregiously outdated builds Alchemist (Lane) -> Support? Ancient Apparition (Middle) Beastmaster (Middle) -> Support? Earth Spirit (Middle) -> Core? Gyrocopter (Middle) -> Support? Lone Druid (Jungle) Oracle (Middle) Shadow Shaman (Middle) Skywrath Mage (Middle)New guides Enchantress Offlane Invoker Core QE Mirana Support/Roam Venge Core Zeus SupportPossible guides Bounty Hunter Offlane Void Core Morph Offlane Pudge Core Pugna Support Veno Core Spirit Breaker Offlane Tusk Core Wraith King SupportIt might be worth labelling a few very specific heroes as "roam", like techies, pudge, spiritbreaker and bounty. It would get us around having to create their parallel guides. My instinct is that a lot of 2k players would avoid subscribing to a pudge guide that explicitly labels them a support, but would be comfortable with roam. BELISARIUS: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-120-million-subscriptions?page=282#5636 | ||
TheYango
United States10886 Posts
+ Applicable to Support Heroes (e.g. Aghs rushers) I don't really agree with this because most of these heroes should still be making contributions to support fundamentals before they acquire these core items. For example and Overlapping them into "core" is just going to be confusing. Why would you not just make them support? What heroes is this even supposed to cover because an Agh's rush support like WD should and does buy support items for most of the early game? | ||
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United States4569 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal7988 Posts
all they're gonna see is that agha is in there and because he got stomped by a WD with brown boots and an agha once, hes gonna rush it without thinking, "why?" On March 05 2016 06:37 Torte de Lini wrote: Core that are not hard carries: Initiators who need Blink or Aghs and do not buy wards/courier: Supportive Heroes: Examples: ?? (support/core) ??Off the top of my head this is why i am in favor of the phrase "Farming" or "Farmer" - it is less ambiguous for new players who have never even heard the word "core" before bc no one uses it, even in game. If you wanted to be consistent with the in-game stuff, "Carry" would be most appropriate. | ||
TheYango
United States10886 Posts
Labeling them as core is going to lead to a lot of confusion, because core usually has some implication on how much farm you're getting. A 4th position hero that doesn't buy wards and lets the other support buy them is still decidedly not a core, and implying that they are is just going to confuse people a lot. On March 05 2016 06:42 BluemoonSC wrote: this is why i am in favor of the phrase "Farming" or "Farmer" - it is less ambiguous for new players who have never even heard the word "core" before bc no one uses it, even in game. If you wanted to be consistent with the in-game stuff, "Carry" would be most appropriate. This is also acceptable. | ||
TheYango
United States10886 Posts
A 4th position Night Stalker is not a core. Placing it under support does probably create some implicit assumptions on how it's supposed to play, but so does "core" and less of the "support" assumptions are wrong ones. | ||
Logo
United States4569 Posts
What about: Starting items: Normal (no wards/courier maybe) Utility items: standard list but without Observer wards. Situational: Observer Wards. Possibly regular and/or flying courier. Like a pos 4 aghs rush only practical difference is they shouldn't buy observer wards... so move it to situational. | ||
TheYango
United States10886 Posts
If your other support is dumb and doesn't buy wards, or if you get no other support and are solo-supporting, it's still the correct play to just suck it up, delay your core items, and buy wards on most of those heroes (even though you also probably don't want to be playing any of those heroes in that kind of game). | ||
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