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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 261

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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States10886 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-05 03:12:45
January 05 2016 03:10 GMT
#5201
On January 05 2016 12:03 Birdie wrote:
If you aren't maxing E on Drow then just get stats and gust, with value points in E and Q.

Stats > Frost Arrows hasn't been the way to go since the skill got buffs to the slow %. 60% slow is no joke and max Frost Arrows is definitely the way to go outside of the specific applications of maxing Precision Aura.

The only situation where Stats excels is pure farming.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
January 05 2016 03:21 GMT
#5202
On January 05 2016 11:49 Thetwinmasters wrote:
bash at level 1 for fv is wrong 99% of the time for guide level players


Q instead?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-06 08:02:02
January 05 2016 03:35 GMT
#5203
edf
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
January 05 2016 03:44 GMT
#5204
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDoTA2/comments/3zhvwy/686_void_build_updated/ -- interesting void discussion
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia3580 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-05 04:21:35
January 05 2016 04:21 GMT
#5205
I honestly don't know why you're fixating on void so much. Just pick something that's not terrible - the current build is fine - and then wait and see.

These guides are "standard". It seems to me that their purpose should not be to speculate, but to report what's established. When nothing's established, just be conservative.
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
January 05 2016 05:27 GMT
#5206
On January 05 2016 13:21 Belisarius wrote:
I honestly don't know why you're fixating on void so much. Just pick something that's not terrible - the current build is fine - and then wait and see.

These guides are "standard". It seems to me that their purpose should not be to speculate, but to report what's established. When nothing's established, just be conservative.


We're the only Faceless Void guide remotely up-to-date: http://steamcommunity.com/app/570/guides/?searchText=&browsefilter=toprated&browsesort=creationorder&requiredtags%5B%5D=English&requiredtags%5B%5D=Faceless+Void&requiredtags%5B%5D=Hero+Build

So I feel there's an emphasized responsibility to try and at least pin down what items work and what do not to better round out a remote sense of how to build him.

Plus it is a bit fun theorycraft and wonder how best he would be played.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland598 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-05 08:31:02
January 05 2016 08:18 GMT
#5207
On January 05 2016 10:27 BluemoonSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2016 07:29 Velzi wrote:
I dont think we should have void guide for the offlane in the first place, hero still excels better in the safelane especially in the lower bracket. Only thing that has changed is the fact that now u rather build void tanky rather than squishy initiator who removes 1 hero from the game in chrono.

I dont think blink is necessary in any position and i think u could just build void like any other melee carry is built nowadays (treads roa sny skadi bkb kinda stuff).

Obviously u benefit from attack speed even more than most of the heroes but u shouldnt feel like u have to get max attack speed in the first 2 items, rather tank up a bit and get damage output later (since with ur q u are suuper tanky early mid game, u are literally immortal if u have treads (vanguard, i still like it) sny etc.

Maxing q is safe while maxing e is greedy. Maxing w rarely makes sense but sometimes u feel like having more than 1 in w before lvl10 feels necessary but for guide, i would go 4-1-1-1 or just even lvl q and e.


he is an outstanding offlaner right now. you should try playing a couple of games before you make this conclusion.


I never said void is not a good offlaner right now, but i still think he is better in safelane. Problem i see with the offlane void is that if u put 1-2k player to solo offlane with void, they think the guide is fine until the point they use their first chrono to kill someone and they dont have damage output they think they have with void. Another problem with void is that if u build blink early with it, u are so dependent on to get a chrono that u are useless if u fuck it up even a bit (like magnus rp or enigma bh kinda style). Actually u can fuck up even more with void by chronoing ur own team (which is more than likely to happen in low brackets when u panic and do before thinking).

Im fine if u guys really think we should focus on putting void to exclusively offlane, but safelane is still the place for me until we get more data work on (and my data shows safe is better right now).

E: As someone said, we should have 2 guides but since its not possible at the moment i think we should focus on one rather than just throwing up useful items for both guides. And like i said earlier i dont see the reasoning behind blink first but if thats what majority wants who am i saying its not the item.

E2: Torte, ur guide is now maxing Time Lock over Time Walk, is that intented? (i think all agreed on maxing q over e earlier already). Linkens is actually interesting idea, have to look more into it.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1362 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-05 18:34:35
January 05 2016 18:33 GMT
#5208
On January 05 2016 04:50 Buckyman wrote:
Speaking of Drow, I think you should add a branch to her starting items.


Repeating this because you missed it the first time.

I arrived at this conclusion by substituting circlet+branch for slippers in my games, because I wanted the extra max HP before Aquila, then reversing back to slippers+branch because you prefer slippers.

The branch typically becomes an extra tango about 5 minutes in, but also shores up Drow's level 1 weakness a bit.
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
January 05 2016 18:39 GMT
#5209
On January 06 2016 03:33 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2016 04:50 Buckyman wrote:
Speaking of Drow, I think you should add a branch to her starting items.


Repeating this because you missed it the first time.

I arrived at this conclusion by substituting circlet+branch for slippers in my games, because I wanted the extra max HP before Aquila, then reversing back to slippers+branch because you prefer slippers.

The branch typically becomes an extra tango about 5 minutes in, but also shores up Drow's level 1 weakness a bit.


thanks! done
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Joined November 2010
SoCal7988 Posts
January 06 2016 03:35 GMT
#5210
On January 05 2016 11:29 TheYango wrote:
We're still in the honeymoon period with a new patch where people love it and think everything's viable.

Once we get to the point where the super-broken thing of the patch starts getting abused and we realize 90% of the things people tried are just bad, one of them will probably emerge as being way better than the other.


idk dude. timewalk is a hell of a skill to have as an offlaner. you can farm far more safely in a lot of situations that many offlaners would not be able to farm in.
Sellout@BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia3580 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-06 04:02:58
January 06 2016 04:02 GMT
#5211
A minor note on drow, I think she should have yasha in core and manta in extension. If you have SnY in situational it makes sense to start with yasha and choose. Also, as usual for pretty much any ranged hero, I would never be planning from the start of the game to pick up manta as second major item.
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
January 06 2016 06:38 GMT
#5212
On January 06 2016 13:02 Belisarius wrote:
A minor note on drow, I think she should have yasha in core and manta in extension. If you have SnY in situational it makes sense to start with yasha and choose. Also, as usual for pretty much any ranged hero, I would never be planning from the start of the game to pick up manta as second major item.


I prefer the guide makes a hard-decision for the user and then have them contemplate the value of both items over leaving it open-ended. I believe I did this for another hero about a year ago and it ended being more slots taken for choices over being an actual guide.

Manta or BKB is interchangeable in slots and in timing. Initially, BKB was always Core and fairly early and I've been pushing it further and further back for users to debate its value (sometimes even going to Extension choice). I'm not sure if we should consider pushing BKB to be earlier or allow users to play a bit more greedy.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
January 06 2016 08:01 GMT
#5213
On January 05 2016 17:18 Velzi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2016 10:27 BluemoonSC wrote:
On January 05 2016 07:29 Velzi wrote:
I dont think we should have void guide for the offlane in the first place, hero still excels better in the safelane especially in the lower bracket. Only thing that has changed is the fact that now u rather build void tanky rather than squishy initiator who removes 1 hero from the game in chrono.

I dont think blink is necessary in any position and i think u could just build void like any other melee carry is built nowadays (treads roa sny skadi bkb kinda stuff).

Obviously u benefit from attack speed even more than most of the heroes but u shouldnt feel like u have to get max attack speed in the first 2 items, rather tank up a bit and get damage output later (since with ur q u are suuper tanky early mid game, u are literally immortal if u have treads (vanguard, i still like it) sny etc.

Maxing q is safe while maxing e is greedy. Maxing w rarely makes sense but sometimes u feel like having more than 1 in w before lvl10 feels necessary but for guide, i would go 4-1-1-1 or just even lvl q and e.


he is an outstanding offlaner right now. you should try playing a couple of games before you make this conclusion.


I never said void is not a good offlaner right now, but i still think he is better in safelane. Problem i see with the offlane void is that if u put 1-2k player to solo offlane with void, they think the guide is fine until the point they use their first chrono to kill someone and they dont have damage output they think they have with void. Another problem with void is that if u build blink early with it, u are so dependent on to get a chrono that u are useless if u fuck it up even a bit (like magnus rp or enigma bh kinda style). Actually u can fuck up even more with void by chronoing ur own team (which is more than likely to happen in low brackets when u panic and do before thinking).

Im fine if u guys really think we should focus on putting void to exclusively offlane, but safelane is still the place for me until we get more data work on (and my data shows safe is better right now).

E: As someone said, we should have 2 guides but since its not possible at the moment i think we should focus on one rather than just throwing up useful items for both guides. And like i said earlier i dont see the reasoning behind blink first but if thats what majority wants who am i saying its not the item.

E2: Torte, ur guide is now maxing Time Lock over Time Walk, is that intented? (i think all agreed on maxing q over e earlier already). Linkens is actually interesting idea, have to look more into it.


I am 100% intending to change it to Time Walk max first tomorrow. Revamp it with Manta Style.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-06 20:29:20
January 06 2016 08:02 GMT
#5214
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Joined November 2010
SoCal7988 Posts
January 06 2016 17:25 GMT
#5215
On January 06 2016 13:02 Belisarius wrote:
A minor note on drow, I think she should have yasha in core and manta in extension. If you have SnY in situational it makes sense to start with yasha and choose. Also, as usual for pretty much any ranged hero, I would never be planning from the start of the game to pick up manta as second major item.


100%

On January 06 2016 15:38 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2016 13:02 Belisarius wrote:
A minor note on drow, I think she should have yasha in core and manta in extension. If you have SnY in situational it makes sense to start with yasha and choose. Also, as usual for pretty much any ranged hero, I would never be planning from the start of the game to pick up manta as second major item.


I prefer the guide makes a hard-decision for the user and then have them contemplate the value of both items over leaving it open-ended. I believe I did this for another hero about a year ago and it ended being more slots taken for choices over being an actual guide.

Manta or BKB is interchangeable in slots and in timing. Initially, BKB was always Core and fairly early and I've been pushing it further and further back for users to debate its value (sometimes even going to Extension choice). I'm not sure if we should consider pushing BKB to be earlier or allow users to play a bit more greedy.


the thing is, a casual yasha on drow is almost never bad. its a good intermediate item that gives her the things she needs in just about every game. like belisarius says, she can build either depending on how the game is going. a quick sny is pretty strong.

i would also argue that manta and bkb are not necessarily meant to have exchangeable slots or timings as they serve different purposes for different heroes. drow, in particular, does not need both every/most game/s.
Sellout@BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland598 Posts
January 06 2016 17:37 GMT
#5216
Some supports missing double obs start (IIRC it is standard now?) Rubick,Disruptor,Dazzle.

Chen has 3x GG Branch start. Any particular reason? U dont usually build Wand for Chen and Mekansm uses only 2 branches. There is no tangoes in the build either to abuse double regen with one branch.

Checked most of the supports builds, they seemed fine atleast for me (i dont play a lot of supports, only the few chosen ones).
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States10886 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-06 17:47:35
January 06 2016 17:43 GMT
#5217
It's just very unlikely to have the item progression listed under "core" ever. Most people read the guides as "buy the core items in order then buy some of the extension ones, but actually progressing HoD->Manta->BKB is quite awkward.

You're more likely to do it with S&Y because S&Y is more efficient straight-up while Manta is an item that only gets more cost-efficient with more stat items. With Manta you're more likely to go HoD->Yasha->other stuff->Manta later so the build as listed is just very unusual.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-06 20:28:52
January 06 2016 20:28 GMT
#5218
On January 07 2016 02:37 Velzi wrote:
Some supports missing double obs start (IIRC it is standard now?) Rubick,Disruptor,Dazzle.

Chen has 3x GG Branch start. Any particular reason? U dont usually build Wand for Chen and Mekansm uses only 2 branches. There is no tangoes in the build either to abuse double regen with one branch.

Checked most of the supports builds, they seemed fine atleast for me (i dont play a lot of supports, only the few chosen ones).



Yes, it is standard. I'll go through Rubick/Disruptor/Dazzle now! Thanks

I'll remove a branch, I could have sworn it was for mana-pool purposes though

On January 07 2016 02:43 TheYango wrote:
It's just very unlikely to have the item progression listed under "core" ever. Most people read the guides as "buy the core items in order then buy some of the extension ones, but actually progressing HoD->Manta->BKB is quite awkward.

You're more likely to do it with S&Y because S&Y is more efficient straight-up while Manta is an item that only gets more cost-efficient with more stat items. With Manta you're more likely to go HoD->Yasha->other stuff->Manta later so the build as listed is just very unusual.


We can re-add Yasha and slot in Manta after BKB;
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-06 20:34:16
January 06 2016 20:33 GMT
#5219
Faceless Void Faceless Void
New Skill Build: E Q E W E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Time Lock 2. Time Walk 3. Time Dilation)
Added Vladmir's Offering to Core Items
Added Butterfly To Luxury Items
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Sange and Yasha to Extension Items
Moved Refresher Orb to Luxury Items
Removed Mask of Madness
Removed Daedalus

Outworld Devourer Outworld Devourer
New Skill Build: W E Q E E Q E Q R Q R W W W R (1. Essence Aura 2. Arcane Orb 3. Astral Imprisonment)

Drow Ranger Drow Ranger
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Frost Arrows 2. Precision Aura 3. Gust)
Added Iron Branch to Starting Items
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items

Rubick Rubick
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items

Dazzle Dazzle
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items

Disruptor Disruptor
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items

Chen Chen
Removed Iron Branch




Oracle Aether Lens Core, Eul's Extension?

Faceless Void update skill build, update item build

To-Do:
Reduce the following lists:
Faerie Fire applicability?
+ Show Spoiler [Consider Heroes] +


Axe (Lane/Jungle)
Batrider
Beastmaster (Middle)
Brewmaster (Lane/Middle)
Centaur Warrunner
Chaos Knight
Doom (Jungle)
Dragon Knight (Lane/Middle)
Earth Spirit (Lane/Middle)
Faceless Void
Huskar
Juggernaut
Legion Commander (Lane/Middle)
Lone Druid (Lane)
Lycan (Lane)
Morphling
Night Stalker
Ogre Magi
Phantom Assassin
Phantom Lancer
Sand King
Silencer
Slardar
Slark (Lane/Middle)
Tiny (Lane)
Troll Warlord (Lane/Middle)
Windranger (Lane/Middle)


Side-Shop Bottle?
+ Show Spoiler [Consider Heroes] +

Alchemist (Lane)
Ancient Apparition (Lane)
Arc Warden (Lane)
Beastmaster (Lane, remove Soul Ring/Tranqs?)
Brewmaster (Lane)
Disruptor
Earth Spirit (Lane)
Ember Spirit (Lane)
Gyrocopter (Lane)
Kunkka (Lane)
Leshrac (Lane)
Lina (Lane)
Nyx Assassin (Lane)
Pugna
Shadow Demon
Shadow Shaman (Lane)
Silencer (Lane)
Skywrath Mage (Lane)
Treant Protector
Tiny (Lane)
Tusk (Lane)
Venomancer (Lane)
Visage (Lane)
Weaver (Lane)
Windranger (Lane)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1362 Posts
January 06 2016 21:03 GMT
#5220
Thanks to recent experiments, I now think Drow should always grab a second point in W by 9 - the key capability here is being able to Gust, wait to see if it connects, and TP out if it does.
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