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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 254

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BluemoonSC
Profile Joined November 2010
SoCal7988 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-22 12:12:11
December 22 2015 12:08 GMT
#5061
On December 22 2015 13:42 Birdie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2015 12:57 ahswtini wrote:
i still think lvl 1 ignite is better than fireblast on ogre

So situational though, it really depends. I don't think it matters which you put first in the guide, as long as you have both at level 2. If they need the guide to decide what then probably fireblast is better because there are more situations where you need it first than ignite.


what situations would you prefer fireblast over ignite in a level 1 fight at, lets say, the rune?

oh and leveling q/e together on arc warden isn't great @ mid. realistically, the slow is the only thing that matters as you're maxing your e, casting flux on someone headed for the rune and nuking them with multiple casts of E is much better than having 2 points in each IMO.

is bottle in the mid guide? can't check this morning while im at work

ive been playing a bunch of him lately to get a better understanding. the hero is stroooooong.

I wanna start experimenting with my followup to midas necro bots blink. I like the rapiers but I don't trust myself yet. I played against a PA, but I don't think MKB is the play? just rat?
Sellout@BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.
ahswtini
Profile Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland16360 Posts
December 22 2015 13:01 GMT
#5062
On December 22 2015 13:42 Birdie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2015 12:57 ahswtini wrote:
i still think lvl 1 ignite is better than fireblast on ogre

So situational though, it really depends. I don't think it matters which you put first in the guide, as long as you have both at level 2. If they need the guide to decide what then probably fireblast is better because there are more situations where you need it first than ignite.

lvl 1 ignite does over double the dmg of fireblast, has a longer cast range and is much better for getting early kills. fireblast is really weak, only cuz its balanced around multicast. i would go something like W Q W Q Q R that way i have lvl 3 fireblast online for when i get multicast.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Logo
Profile Joined April 2010
United States4569 Posts
December 22 2015 15:01 GMT
#5063
On December 22 2015 22:01 ahswtini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2015 13:42 Birdie wrote:
On December 22 2015 12:57 ahswtini wrote:
i still think lvl 1 ignite is better than fireblast on ogre

So situational though, it really depends. I don't think it matters which you put first in the guide, as long as you have both at level 2. If they need the guide to decide what then probably fireblast is better because there are more situations where you need it first than ignite.

lvl 1 ignite does over double the dmg of fireblast, has a longer cast range and is much better for getting early kills. fireblast is really weak, only cuz its balanced around multicast. i would go something like W Q W Q Q R that way i have lvl 3 fireblast online for when i get multicast.


That's my favorite Ogre build too.

Technically 3 W an 2 Q will on average do slightly more damage, but with 3 Q you can roll the dice better so I think 3-2-0-1 -> 4-2-1-1 is better.
Logo
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 01:01:52
December 22 2015 19:02 GMT
#5064
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-22 19:14:48
December 22 2015 19:07 GMT
#5065
On December 22 2015 18:24 Velzi wrote:
Agree on lvl1 ignite over fireblast, and i would max q over w too @lvl7, just the amount of surprise burst u can get with multicast is enough of a reason to max fireblast. E: seems like u are maxing q already, for some reason i thought we had max w there. Whether u get value point in e @lvl4 or @lvl8 is situational, both are just fine.

For Spectre, if lane is really tough i like to go either Mask of Death or full MoM, if lane is okey then just Ring of Health. If lane is really tough and u cant transition to jungle for whatever reason and u have to farm lane, then full Vanguard.

Treads are imo better choice on Spectre in almost any circumstances but thats just my prefs on almost any hero.

Silencer Mid has value point in q @4 and then maxes q over w? What the. I would get 1 lvl in all skills (wqe or weq) and then max r>e>w>q. Last Word doesnt scale enough imo to justify 2 points in it before opening all skills to get maximum damage output @lvl3. Maxing Last Word makes sense to get lower cooldown (from 30 to 12) but lower cooldown doesnt do anything @lvl3 when u get ganked / u fight face to face with enemy mid.

Maxing "nukes" over orb makes sense if u are support but with the lvls and farm u should have with mid silencer maxing w is so strong. And i dont know if we want to have Silencer Lane as a farmer, rather support silencer (where maxing r>e>q>w with value point in w for lane harass). I dont really think silencer should be the main right clicker in ur team, he aint that strong to justify pos1 safelane farm. Solo safelane is fine but u wont see solo safelanes in pubs almost never.

Atos Enigma? Naah i dont really think thats a good idea, u farm reasonably fast after ur core that u should try to either save up for hex or refresher or octarine at that point. Pipe seems really really situational too (i mean really situational, dont know if it should be in the guide either).

KOTL could have earlier point in Mana Leak, its such a strong laning skill it should be lvled earlier (maybe qeew or qwee?)

Zeus has Aghs on Extension, i like the item Description for the Aghs but people still build Arcanes Aghs and think why they suck :< I would move Aghs as far away as possible to make sure people dont build it as first major item, i dont know how we do that but it just sucks so much.


Spectre I can change to Power Treads; since we're aiming late-game, it might be better

Silencer let me take another look, I want to update both guides as a whole

Enigma rod of atos as situational Items is no big deal imp

Keeper of the Light feels like some people are skipping it and maxing chakra overall. Thoughts?

Zeus we'll just remove Aghs

On December 22 2015 21:08 BluemoonSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2015 13:42 Birdie wrote:
On December 22 2015 12:57 ahswtini wrote:
i still think lvl 1 ignite is better than fireblast on ogre

So situational though, it really depends. I don't think it matters which you put first in the guide, as long as you have both at level 2. If they need the guide to decide what then probably fireblast is better because there are more situations where you need it first than ignite.


what situations would you prefer fireblast over ignite in a level 1 fight at, lets say, the rune?

oh and leveling q/e together on arc warden isn't great @ mid. realistically, the slow is the only thing that matters as you're maxing your e, casting flux on someone headed for the rune and nuking them with multiple casts of E is much better than having 2 points in each IMO.

is bottle in the mid guide? can't check this morning while im at work

ive been playing a bunch of him lately to get a better understanding. the hero is stroooooong.

I wanna start experimenting with my followup to midas necro bots blink. I like the rapiers but I don't trust myself yet. I played against a PA, but I don't think MKB is the play? just rat?


Arc Warden: Im going to wait for the meta to play out

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Logo
Profile Joined April 2010
United States4569 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-22 19:54:33
December 22 2015 19:52 GMT
#5066
Is Windranger on the list at all for an update? I feel like 6.86 not changing WR's item evaluation much should be the last straw for the Maelstorm/Force staff build, though both are still situational pick ups probably. Blink/Aghs seems like it should definitely be the core and has been for awhile now so it seems stable.
Logo
BluemoonSC
Profile Joined November 2010
SoCal7988 Posts
December 22 2015 21:11 GMT
#5067
On December 23 2015 04:07 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2015 18:24 Velzi wrote:
Agree on lvl1 ignite over fireblast, and i would max q over w too @lvl7, just the amount of surprise burst u can get with multicast is enough of a reason to max fireblast. E: seems like u are maxing q already, for some reason i thought we had max w there. Whether u get value point in e @lvl4 or @lvl8 is situational, both are just fine.

For Spectre, if lane is really tough i like to go either Mask of Death or full MoM, if lane is okey then just Ring of Health. If lane is really tough and u cant transition to jungle for whatever reason and u have to farm lane, then full Vanguard.

Treads are imo better choice on Spectre in almost any circumstances but thats just my prefs on almost any hero.

Silencer Mid has value point in q @4 and then maxes q over w? What the. I would get 1 lvl in all skills (wqe or weq) and then max r>e>w>q. Last Word doesnt scale enough imo to justify 2 points in it before opening all skills to get maximum damage output @lvl3. Maxing Last Word makes sense to get lower cooldown (from 30 to 12) but lower cooldown doesnt do anything @lvl3 when u get ganked / u fight face to face with enemy mid.

Maxing "nukes" over orb makes sense if u are support but with the lvls and farm u should have with mid silencer maxing w is so strong. And i dont know if we want to have Silencer Lane as a farmer, rather support silencer (where maxing r>e>q>w with value point in w for lane harass). I dont really think silencer should be the main right clicker in ur team, he aint that strong to justify pos1 safelane farm. Solo safelane is fine but u wont see solo safelanes in pubs almost never.

Atos Enigma? Naah i dont really think thats a good idea, u farm reasonably fast after ur core that u should try to either save up for hex or refresher or octarine at that point. Pipe seems really really situational too (i mean really situational, dont know if it should be in the guide either).

KOTL could have earlier point in Mana Leak, its such a strong laning skill it should be lvled earlier (maybe qeew or qwee?)

Zeus has Aghs on Extension, i like the item Description for the Aghs but people still build Arcanes Aghs and think why they suck :< I would move Aghs as far away as possible to make sure people dont build it as first major item, i dont know how we do that but it just sucks so much.


Spectre I can change to Power Treads; since we're aiming late-game, it might be better

Silencer let me take another look, I want to update both guides as a whole

Enigma rod of atos as situational Items is no big deal imp

Keeper of the Light feels like some people are skipping it and maxing chakra overall. Thoughts?

Zeus we'll just remove Aghs

Show nested quote +
On December 22 2015 21:08 BluemoonSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 13:42 Birdie wrote:
On December 22 2015 12:57 ahswtini wrote:
i still think lvl 1 ignite is better than fireblast on ogre

So situational though, it really depends. I don't think it matters which you put first in the guide, as long as you have both at level 2. If they need the guide to decide what then probably fireblast is better because there are more situations where you need it first than ignite.


what situations would you prefer fireblast over ignite in a level 1 fight at, lets say, the rune?

oh and leveling q/e together on arc warden isn't great @ mid. realistically, the slow is the only thing that matters as you're maxing your e, casting flux on someone headed for the rune and nuking them with multiple casts of E is much better than having 2 points in each IMO.

is bottle in the mid guide? can't check this morning while im at work

ive been playing a bunch of him lately to get a better understanding. the hero is stroooooong.

I wanna start experimenting with my followup to midas necro bots blink. I like the rapiers but I don't trust myself yet. I played against a PA, but I don't think MKB is the play? just rat?


Arc Warden: Im going to wait for the meta to play out



Spectre RE: spectre treads vs phase - your current build maxes desolate before maxing dagger. phase is better here because you will not be able to catch anyone running away from you after you reality into a fight with lvl 1 dagger (but you'll do more dmg per attack). or rather, it will be more difficult. if you max dagger first, the treads are good for more attack speed and thus more desolate dmg via more attacks. which, considering the addition of the iron talon, is probably enticing ATM. i would wait a little longer before making this change and see if we can find any trends among high level dotabuff spectre players.

Silencer RE: mid build - if you're mid, you will likely be going midas first into whatever items are appropriate for the game (highly situational). the slow on last word will trigger if it ticks to duration will allow you to orb and bully heroes like crazy.

with the new Q, im gonna say you still want to max your Q before W tho. W's potency is felt when you have more int, right? so what purpose does it serve if you don't have the int to back it up (which you won't until later in the game). the midas levels will make this happen pretty quickly.

more importantly, leveling Q lines the spell up with your last word CD. you can probably force heroes into stupidly strong positions, forcing them to cast spells and increase the duration of the debuff AND dealing more dmg. i still think r>e>q>w with a value point in your orb early (1-1-1-0) is the go-to.

Keeper of the Light you should never overlook a value mana leak point. its a percentage based spell and if you pair him with someone that plays aggressively in lane and has a spell that forces you to gtfo or get fucked (bristleback, jugg to name a few) that point will easily secure a kill. oh and you get a 1.5 second stun AFTER you forced them to gtfo and lose all their mana. GL laning against that bullshit lol

Zeus yeah i think the best way to stop noobs from building it is to just remove it. if they are looking for it because they think its a good game for it, they prolly don't need the item guide. also save me from wanting to murder my mid zeus and DO NOT have them build bloodstone first.. please have them pick up some form of mobility item like a blink or a force or a euls with bloodstone + octarine in extension items? players that are not familiar with the item do not understand its purpose and wind up contributing nothing to the team during a fight other than an ult (if you're fortunate enough to have them paying attention).

additionally, glimmer cape has no place in mid-zeus guides. bots also needs to be further down in the list. finally, that 2nd point in arc lightning is entirely situational. 1-4-1-1 is probably the best cookie cutter. if you know when to pick up the 2nd point, you don't need the guide. you combine that with a bloodstone build and TBH your itemization does not match the skill build you've selected.

i can tell i played with a person using your guide because, to be quite honest, he was the most useless mid i've ever seen.
Sellout@BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland598 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-22 21:42:26
December 22 2015 21:37 GMT
#5068
For Example Wagamama builds both Treads and Phase on spectre and trend seems to be if treads, then radi first, if phase, then vanguard->radi. Agree on tho with maxing desolate means phase is better at that point, but still falls off later.

Im not really sold on maxing q on silencer but i guess i have to play a bit more of it (might be something to do with the fact that whenever i see silencer enemy picks slark lc pl or any purge instantly to make maxing q less optimal). Either im overestimating his w or u are underestimating it

E: maxing q or w makes difference on lvls 7-10 yeah? So lets say u have 70 int that point (lvl7, 52base+int treads+null+wand f.e.) every point in w increases ur autoattack damage by: 0,2x70 = 14. With lvl1 glaives u get 21+ damage and with lvl4 glaives 63, seems pretty good to me.

Agree on Zeus, maxing w rarely fucks up where as not maxing it can hurt a lot. Didnt realize there is mobility item earlier, blink is my thing but thats just me again.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia3580 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-22 21:39:40
December 22 2015 21:38 GMT
#5069
I think aghs zeus is fine, personally. The hero snowballs incredibly easily in a pub and a big pile of reliable, instant damage on the backline is hard to screw up.

I agree something like blink/euls->later aghs/rfo is better than going naked arcanes aghs, but I don't think it should be removed.

Also, bloodstone core is really not on. I think at least one of the mobility items should be in core to make it clear they're essential.
BluemoonSC
Profile Joined November 2010
SoCal7988 Posts
December 22 2015 23:18 GMT
#5070
On December 23 2015 06:37 Velzi wrote:
For Example Wagamama builds both Treads and Phase on spectre and trend seems to be if treads, then radi first, if phase, then vanguard->radi. Agree on tho with maxing desolate means phase is better at that point, but still falls off later.

Im not really sold on maxing q on silencer but i guess i have to play a bit more of it (might be something to do with the fact that whenever i see silencer enemy picks slark lc pl or any purge instantly to make maxing q less optimal). Either im overestimating his w or u are underestimating it

E: maxing q or w makes difference on lvls 7-10 yeah? So lets say u have 70 int that point (lvl7, 52base+int treads+null+wand f.e.) every point in w increases ur autoattack damage by: 0,2x70 = 14. With lvl1 glaives u get 21+ damage and with lvl4 glaives 63, seems pretty good to me.

Agree on Zeus, maxing w rarely fucks up where as not maxing it can hurt a lot. Didnt realize there is mobility item earlier, blink is my thing but thats just me again.


Ya but then your last word is level 1 so what good is the right click without the slow? And you're on a 30s cd. Overall, last word is guaranteed dmg,silence, and the potential slow..not worth the trade off on right click an a later q/e combo when heroes are getting their bkb/manta.
Sellout@BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States10886 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-22 23:42:01
December 22 2015 23:41 GMT
#5071
On December 23 2015 06:37 Velzi wrote:
Im not really sold on maxing q on silencer but i guess i have to play a bit more of it (might be something to do with the fact that whenever i see silencer enemy picks slark lc pl or any purge instantly to make maxing q less optimal). Either im overestimating his w or u are underestimating it

Silencer's new Q is a huge AoE. Who cares if 1 person purges it if you got 3-4 other people?

Obviously it's worse for single-target damage, but that hero is bad at ganking/catching people to begin with. You pick the hero because you want to teamfight with Global, that's basically the entire point of having the hero.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 02:17:58
December 23 2015 01:01 GMT
#5072
Arc Warden Arc Warden (Lane)
New Skill Build: E Q Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Flux 2. Spark Wraith 3. Magnetic Field)
Created New Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items
Moved Black King Bar to Situational Items
Moved Divine Rapier to "Luxury Items"
Moved Scythe of Vyse to "Luxury Items"
Removed Clarity x2
Removed Mjollnir

Arc Warden Arc Warden (Middle)
New Skill Build: E Q E W E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Spark Wraith 2. Flux 3. Magnetic Field)
Created New Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items
Moved Black King Bar to Situational Items
Moved Divine Rapier to "Luxury Items"
Moved Scythe of Vyse to "Luxury Items"
Removed Mjollnir

Enigma Enigma
Removed Aether Lens

Earth Spirit Earth Spirit (Middle)
New Skill Build: W Q E Q Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Boulder Smash 2. Geomagnetic Grip 3. Rolling Boulder)
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Removed Blink Dagger
Removed Aether Lens

Earth Spirit Earth Spirit (Lane)
New Skill Build: W Q E Q Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Boulder Smash 2. Geomagnetic Grip 3. Rolling Boulder)
Added Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Removed Blink Dagger
Removed Aether Lens
Removed Boots of Travel

Disruptor Disruptor
Removed Aether Lens
Removed Boots of Travel

Jakiro Jakiro
New Skill Build: Q E W E E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Liquid Fire 2. Dual Breath 3. Ice Path)
Added Rod of Atos to Situational Items
Removed Mekansm

Keeper of the Light Keeper of the Light
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Removed Aether Lens

Invoker Invoker
New Skill Build: W E Q Q W W W Q W Q W R W R E R E E E E E Q Q Q (1. Wex 2. Exort 1. Quas)
Added Black King Bar to Situational Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Refresher Orb to Luxury Items
Moved Scythe of Vyse to Luxury Items
Moved Octarine Core to Luxury Items
Removed Early Game tab
Removed Ghost Scepter

Lina Lina (Lane)
Lina Lina (Middle)
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items

Lion Lion
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items

Nyx Assassin Nyx Assasin (Lane)
Nyx Assassin Nyx Assasin (Middle)
Added Aether Lens to Core Items
Removed Dagon

Ogre Magi Ogre Magi
New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q R Q E W W R E E E R (1. Fireblast 2. Ignite 3. Bloodlust
Added Enchanted Mango to Starting Items
Removed Iron Branch

Omniknight Omniknight
Added Enchanted Mango to Starting Items
Added Aether Lens to Situational Items

Shadow Shaman Shadow Shaman (Lane)
Shadow Shaman Shadow Shaman (Middle)
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items

Zeus Zeus
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items
Removed Scythe of Vyse




To-Do:
Ember Spirit (Lane/Middle): Update to Boots of Travel Build

Terrorblade: Double-check Skill Build

Silencer (Lane/Middle): Keep eye on Skill/Item build
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-110-million-subscriptions?page=254#5061

Doom (Lane/Jungle): Keep eye on Skill/Item Build

Nature's Prophet: Update build: better early/starting items: Faerie Fire, etc.

Reduce the following lists:
Faerie Fire applicability?
+ Show Spoiler [Consider Heroes] +


Axe (Lane/Jungle)
Batrider
Beastmaster (Middle)
Brewmaster (Lane/Middle)
Centaur Warrunner
Chaos Knight
Doom (Jungle)
Dragon Knight (Lane/Middle)
Earth Spirit (Lane/Middle)
Faceless Void
Huskar
Juggernaut
Legion Commander (Lane/Middle)
Lone Druid (Lane)
Lycan (Lane)
Morphling
Night Stalker
Ogre Magi
Phantom Assassin
Phantom Lancer
Sand King
Silencer
Slardar
Slark (Lane/Middle)
Tiny (Lane)
Troll Warlord (Lane/Middle)
Windranger (Lane/Middle)


Side-Shop Bottle?
+ Show Spoiler [Consider Heroes] +

Alchemist (Lane)
Ancient Apparition (Lane)
Arc Warden (Lane)
Beastmaster (Lane, remove Soul Ring/Tranqs?)
Brewmaster (Lane)
Disruptor
Earth Spirit (Lane)
Ember Spirit (Lane)
Gyrocopter (Lane)
Kunkka (Lane)
Leshrac (Lane)
Lina (Lane)
Nyx Assassin (Lane)
Pugna
Shadow Demon
Shadow Shaman (Lane)
Silencer (Lane)
Skywrath Mage (Lane)
Treant Protector
Tiny (Lane)
Tusk (Lane)
Venomancer (Lane)
Visage (Lane)
Weaver (Lane)
Windranger (Lane)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 02:10:23
December 23 2015 01:24 GMT
#5073
Invoker build reversed to Quas/Wex

On December 23 2015 00:01 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2015 22:01 ahswtini wrote:
On December 22 2015 13:42 Birdie wrote:
On December 22 2015 12:57 ahswtini wrote:
i still think lvl 1 ignite is better than fireblast on ogre

So situational though, it really depends. I don't think it matters which you put first in the guide, as long as you have both at level 2. If they need the guide to decide what then probably fireblast is better because there are more situations where you need it first than ignite.

lvl 1 ignite does over double the dmg of fireblast, has a longer cast range and is much better for getting early kills. fireblast is really weak, only cuz its balanced around multicast. i would go something like W Q W Q Q R that way i have lvl 3 fireblast online for when i get multicast.


That's my favorite Ogre build too.

Technically 3 W an 2 Q will on average do slightly more damage, but with 3 Q you can roll the dice better so I think 3-2-0-1 -> 4-2-1-1 is better.


Ogre Magi Done

On December 23 2015 06:38 Belisarius wrote:
I think aghs zeus is fine, personally. The hero snowballs incredibly easily in a pub and a big pile of reliable, instant damage on the backline is hard to screw up.

I agree something like blink/euls->later aghs/rfo is better than going naked arcanes aghs, but I don't think it should be removed.

Also, bloodstone core is really not on. I think at least one of the mobility items should be in core to make it clear they're essential.


On December 23 2015 06:11 BluemoonSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2015 04:07 Torte de Lini wrote:
On December 22 2015 18:24 Velzi wrote:
Agree on lvl1 ignite over fireblast, and i would max q over w too @lvl7, just the amount of surprise burst u can get with multicast is enough of a reason to max fireblast. E: seems like u are maxing q already, for some reason i thought we had max w there. Whether u get value point in e @lvl4 or @lvl8 is situational, both are just fine.

For Spectre, if lane is really tough i like to go either Mask of Death or full MoM, if lane is okey then just Ring of Health. If lane is really tough and u cant transition to jungle for whatever reason and u have to farm lane, then full Vanguard.

Treads are imo better choice on Spectre in almost any circumstances but thats just my prefs on almost any hero.

Silencer Mid has value point in q @4 and then maxes q over w? What the. I would get 1 lvl in all skills (wqe or weq) and then max r>e>w>q. Last Word doesnt scale enough imo to justify 2 points in it before opening all skills to get maximum damage output @lvl3. Maxing Last Word makes sense to get lower cooldown (from 30 to 12) but lower cooldown doesnt do anything @lvl3 when u get ganked / u fight face to face with enemy mid.

Maxing "nukes" over orb makes sense if u are support but with the lvls and farm u should have with mid silencer maxing w is so strong. And i dont know if we want to have Silencer Lane as a farmer, rather support silencer (where maxing r>e>q>w with value point in w for lane harass). I dont really think silencer should be the main right clicker in ur team, he aint that strong to justify pos1 safelane farm. Solo safelane is fine but u wont see solo safelanes in pubs almost never.

Atos Enigma? Naah i dont really think thats a good idea, u farm reasonably fast after ur core that u should try to either save up for hex or refresher or octarine at that point. Pipe seems really really situational too (i mean really situational, dont know if it should be in the guide either).

KOTL could have earlier point in Mana Leak, its such a strong laning skill it should be lvled earlier (maybe qeew or qwee?)

Zeus has Aghs on Extension, i like the item Description for the Aghs but people still build Arcanes Aghs and think why they suck :< I would move Aghs as far away as possible to make sure people dont build it as first major item, i dont know how we do that but it just sucks so much.


Spectre I can change to Power Treads; since we're aiming late-game, it might be better

Silencer let me take another look, I want to update both guides as a whole

Enigma rod of atos as situational Items is no big deal imp

Keeper of the Light feels like some people are skipping it and maxing chakra overall. Thoughts?

Zeus we'll just remove Aghs

On December 22 2015 21:08 BluemoonSC wrote:
On December 22 2015 13:42 Birdie wrote:
On December 22 2015 12:57 ahswtini wrote:
i still think lvl 1 ignite is better than fireblast on ogre

So situational though, it really depends. I don't think it matters which you put first in the guide, as long as you have both at level 2. If they need the guide to decide what then probably fireblast is better because there are more situations where you need it first than ignite.


what situations would you prefer fireblast over ignite in a level 1 fight at, lets say, the rune?

oh and leveling q/e together on arc warden isn't great @ mid. realistically, the slow is the only thing that matters as you're maxing your e, casting flux on someone headed for the rune and nuking them with multiple casts of E is much better than having 2 points in each IMO.

is bottle in the mid guide? can't check this morning while im at work

ive been playing a bunch of him lately to get a better understanding. the hero is stroooooong.

I wanna start experimenting with my followup to midas necro bots blink. I like the rapiers but I don't trust myself yet. I played against a PA, but I don't think MKB is the play? just rat?


Arc Warden: Im going to wait for the meta to play out



Spectre RE: spectre treads vs phase - your current build maxes desolate before maxing dagger. phase is better here because you will not be able to catch anyone running away from you after you reality into a fight with lvl 1 dagger (but you'll do more dmg per attack). or rather, it will be more difficult. if you max dagger first, the treads are good for more attack speed and thus more desolate dmg via more attacks. which, considering the addition of the iron talon, is probably enticing ATM. i would wait a little longer before making this change and see if we can find any trends among high level dotabuff spectre players.

Silencer RE: mid build - if you're mid, you will likely be going midas first into whatever items are appropriate for the game (highly situational). the slow on last word will trigger if it ticks to duration will allow you to orb and bully heroes like crazy.

with the new Q, im gonna say you still want to max your Q before W tho. W's potency is felt when you have more int, right? so what purpose does it serve if you don't have the int to back it up (which you won't until later in the game). the midas levels will make this happen pretty quickly.

more importantly, leveling Q lines the spell up with your last word CD. you can probably force heroes into stupidly strong positions, forcing them to cast spells and increase the duration of the debuff AND dealing more dmg. i still think r>e>q>w with a value point in your orb early (1-1-1-0) is the go-to.

Keeper of the Light you should never overlook a value mana leak point. its a percentage based spell and if you pair him with someone that plays aggressively in lane and has a spell that forces you to gtfo or get fucked (bristleback, jugg to name a few) that point will easily secure a kill. oh and you get a 1.5 second stun AFTER you forced them to gtfo and lose all their mana. GL laning against that bullshit lol

Zeus yeah i think the best way to stop noobs from building it is to just remove it. if they are looking for it because they think its a good game for it, they prolly don't need the item guide. also save me from wanting to murder my mid zeus and DO NOT have them build bloodstone first.. please have them pick up some form of mobility item like a blink or a force or a euls with bloodstone + octarine in extension items? players that are not familiar with the item do not understand its purpose and wind up contributing nothing to the team during a fight other than an ult (if you're fortunate enough to have them paying attention).

additionally, glimmer cape has no place in mid-zeus guides. bots also needs to be further down in the list. finally, that 2nd point in arc lightning is entirely situational. 1-4-1-1 is probably the best cookie cutter. if you know when to pick up the 2nd point, you don't need the guide. you combine that with a bloodstone build and TBH your itemization does not match the skill build you've selected.

i can tell i played with a person using your guide because, to be quite honest, he was the most useless mid i've ever seen.


Zeus -- are we reverting the build back from: two points in Q to farm jungle for Bloodstone to:
Q E W W W (max W, Max Q, Max E).

Core: Blink -> Veil of Discord
Extension: Aether Lens/Bloodstone/Refresher/Boots of Travel
Luxury: Aghs/Octarine Core

Keeper of the Light I think we're overestimating the value of an early Mana Leak as a general use in lane when Chakra Magic has been severely improved. I'm going to delay the ultimate to a later level to actually accommodate for that (7-8)

On December 23 2015 04:52 Logo wrote:
Is Windranger on the list at all for an update? I feel like 6.86 not changing WR's item evaluation much should be the last straw for the Maelstorm/Force staff build, though both are still situational pick ups probably. Blink/Aghs seems like it should definitely be the core and has been for awhile now so it seems stable.


Windranger It hasn't been on my radar. I have my co-worker, who is very new, playing her a lot and he seems fine without Blink Dagger. Overall, it is damage that is doing well. I can tab it for review.

Arc Warden Arc Warden: I updated Arc Warden's skill build (Lane) and itemization. I'm fearful that the Extension items won't all be bought and people may skip to Luxury Items; but I don't think that's as bad as it seems; just less optimal.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia3580 Posts
December 23 2015 02:25 GMT
#5074
Windranger should be phase->aghs->mobility.

I feel like this has come up several times and people keep telling you the same thing. The purpose of maelstrom is to open up a window where you can solokill key heroes at 3k gold instead of waiting for aghs. It's highly situational. If you don't have that specific need, you should just rush aghs.

Blink after aghs is the standard progression to extend your ability to catch people out. I guess you could go force if you really needed the intel, but blink is far better.

And honestly, a single new player working through it is a pretty poor sample size. It also ignores the fact that if he learned to use blink to pick up solokills he would probably do much better, but he hasn't learned that and so it looks unnecessary.
BluemoonSC
Profile Joined November 2010
SoCal7988 Posts
December 23 2015 02:40 GMT
#5075
On December 23 2015 08:41 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2015 06:37 Velzi wrote:
Im not really sold on maxing q on silencer but i guess i have to play a bit more of it (might be something to do with the fact that whenever i see silencer enemy picks slark lc pl or any purge instantly to make maxing q less optimal). Either im overestimating his w or u are underestimating it

Silencer's new Q is a huge AoE. Who cares if 1 person purges it if you got 3-4 other people?

Obviously it's worse for single-target damage, but that hero is bad at ganking/catching people to begin with. You pick the hero because you want to teamfight with Global, that's basically the entire point of having the hero.


i actually think that silencer is in the best state for solo kills than he's ever been in. doesn't change the fact that his sole purpose is team fighting around the silence, tho.
Sellout@BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.
Logo
Profile Joined April 2010
United States4569 Posts
December 23 2015 02:46 GMT
#5076
On December 23 2015 11:25 Belisarius wrote:
Windranger should be phase->aghs->mobility.

I feel like this has come up several times and people keep telling you the same thing. The purpose of maelstrom is to open up a window where you can solokill key heroes at 3k gold instead of waiting for aghs. It's highly situational. If you don't have that specific need, you should just rush aghs.

Blink after aghs is the standard progression to extend your ability to catch people out. I guess you could go force if you really needed the intel, but blink is far better.

And honestly, a single new player working through it is a pretty poor sample size. It also ignores the fact that if he learned to use blink to pick up solokills he would probably do much better, but he hasn't learned that and so it looks unnecessary.


I think it's sort of fine too in the sense that a player who works better with aghs + damage is likely to just skip the blink dagger because it's too complicated for them to deal with.
Logo
BluemoonSC
Profile Joined November 2010
SoCal7988 Posts
December 23 2015 03:03 GMT
#5077
RE: zeus - the issue is the 2nd point in arc lightning. its only necessary if you can't cs reliably bc your attack animation sucks, so you need the extra dmg. otherwise, the extra point isn't worth it by the time you get ready for your first ultimate. ideally, the 3rd lvl in bolt is +100 dmg for that kill whereas only 15 if you're 2-2-1-1 with the 2nd point in arc lightning.

On December 23 2015 11:46 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2015 11:25 Belisarius wrote:
Windranger should be phase->aghs->mobility.

I feel like this has come up several times and people keep telling you the same thing. The purpose of maelstrom is to open up a window where you can solokill key heroes at 3k gold instead of waiting for aghs. It's highly situational. If you don't have that specific need, you should just rush aghs.

Blink after aghs is the standard progression to extend your ability to catch people out. I guess you could go force if you really needed the intel, but blink is far better.

And honestly, a single new player working through it is a pretty poor sample size. It also ignores the fact that if he learned to use blink to pick up solokills he would probably do much better, but he hasn't learned that and so it looks unnecessary.


I think it's sort of fine too in the sense that a player who works better with aghs + damage is likely to just skip the blink dagger because it's too complicated for them to deal with.


if you're fighting heroes, agha is situational, but mobility is required to get in range for your nuke.

blink/euls -> bloodstone -> octarine is my go to, but at the bare minimum, your core should be blink/euls-bloodstone.

RE: KOTL we are absolutely not undervaluing mana leak. i cant remember if it was WCA or a Summit game but kotl just dominated the other team's offlaner with his mana leak. it was ridiculous.

RE: Windranger..blink is a positioning tool to get off that shackle so that you can let loose on your ultimate instead of having to keep up with the person you're using it on walking away. if your friend is doing really well without a blink/force, im not sure how lol

arc warden build looks good. id maybe switch the midas to the end of the early game build so you can still farm in lane and do stuff in the river every 2 minutes. rune kills with flux + wraith is really strong.
Sellout@BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.
Logo
Profile Joined April 2010
United States4569 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 04:01:37
December 23 2015 03:55 GMT
#5078
I'm lost, you quoted me about Windranger then said something that seems to apply more to Zeus. I was saying for WR putting Aghs->Blink is good as core because newbies who don't like blink daggers will just go to a dmg item and those that don't know should get used to using blink if they want to play WR.
Logo
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland598 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 09:33:34
December 23 2015 09:24 GMT
#5079
On December 23 2015 08:18 BluemoonSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2015 06:37 Velzi wrote:
For Example Wagamama builds both Treads and Phase on spectre and trend seems to be if treads, then radi first, if phase, then vanguard->radi. Agree on tho with maxing desolate means phase is better at that point, but still falls off later.

Im not really sold on maxing q on silencer but i guess i have to play a bit more of it (might be something to do with the fact that whenever i see silencer enemy picks slark lc pl or any purge instantly to make maxing q less optimal). Either im overestimating his w or u are underestimating it

E: maxing q or w makes difference on lvls 7-10 yeah? So lets say u have 70 int that point (lvl7, 52base+int treads+null+wand f.e.) every point in w increases ur autoattack damage by: 0,2x70 = 14. With lvl1 glaives u get 21+ damage and with lvl4 glaives 63, seems pretty good to me.

Agree on Zeus, maxing w rarely fucks up where as not maxing it can hurt a lot. Didnt realize there is mobility item earlier, blink is my thing but thats just me again.


Ya but then your last word is level 1 so what good is the right click without the slow? And you're on a 30s cd. Overall, last word is guaranteed dmg,silence, and the potential slow..not worth the trade off on right click an a later q/e combo when heroes are getting their bkb/manta.

I never said u shouldnt max e first, we were discussing whether to max q or w AFTER maxing e.

Agree for WR, Aghs -> Blink -> Daedalus -> (BKB) is just so solid u cant really skip it
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
BluemoonSC
Profile Joined November 2010
SoCal7988 Posts
December 23 2015 12:47 GMT
#5080
On December 23 2015 12:55 Logo wrote:
I'm lost, you quoted me about Windranger then said something that seems to apply more to Zeus. I was saying for WR putting Aghs->Blink is good as core because newbies who don't like blink daggers will just go to a dmg item and those that don't know should get used to using blink if they want to play WR.


yup i misinterpretted what you were replying to bc bela replied to the zeus agha discussion earlier and we were advocating mobility. i thought you were quoting him there and didn't read thoroughly my mistake!

@velzi, from what i gathered from your post, you were talking about lvl 7 with maxed glaives? might have misinterpretted you as well.
Sellout@BluemoonGG_ | The past is your lesson. The present, your gift. And the future.. your motivation.
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