In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 246
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BluemoonSC
SoCal7988 Posts
On December 05 2015 06:00 TheYango wrote: Early BKB just lets you go into fights a lot more aggressively because Dark Pact's importance to your midgame burst damage is at odds with the fact that it's also one of your defensive tools. BKB lets you just use those Dark Pacts to force those backline kills through without worrying that you put your stun-evading skill on CD, while also just being a lot of general damage mitigation for a hero that has low base HP. Minor but not-insignificant benefit is that Dark Pact does no self-damage during active BKB because it's magic damage. lothar + pounce and right clicks, pacting when you have to is more than enough damage to kill backline heroes in a pub. if our hp loss is an issue, you can always shadow dance but there's probably no reason to need more than one pact early on when hp loss is a concern. there is just about no way you would ever get an 'early' bkb as slark because you would do less dmg than you would with an actual dmg item so it defeats the purpose of the item to begin with. besides, maybe your opinion of an early bkb was pertinent when you could buy another and reset the duration on avatar but with the duration changes, you want to put off buying a bkb until its absolutely necessary to have to on most heroes anyway. slark's toolkit allows him to shed off disables and this is particularly useful early on when predicting them is easier and teamfights are less hectic. its much better to rely on your reactions and cooldowns early and buy a bkb later so you can have those longer durations for when magic burst is higher or when everyone is more likely to be grouped for chain disables or to hit you with something you don't see coming. anyway, this belongs in the slark thread i think. as far as it's place in a guides, bfly is definitely more extension than bkb (which is definitely very situational) or moonshard, but moonshard is a worthy mention for extension items if its placed at the end of the list. satanic should be situational and AC needs to be added to situational as well considering how saturated with -armor the meta is. that's all i have for slark before bed. if i can think of anything else as im dozing off ill post again. RE: alch - any alchemist that picks up a battlefury is free mmr, that item should be banned from being picked up on that hero. but now that its being mentioned, im interested in a blademail build on alchemist. its interesting because you need to nuke the shit out of him to kill him. blademail makes that a dangerous prospect. and maelstrom into mjolnir is definitely not better than an AC despite the easier buildup (which alch shouldn't really need to worry about). AC addresses all of his needs whereas Mjolnir only makes him punch faster. the synergy with his q is also there. | ||
TheYango
United States10886 Posts
On December 05 2015 13:42 BluemoonSC wrote: RE: alch - any alchemist that picks up a battlefury is free mmr, that item should be banned from being picked up on that hero. This is a really myopic view of item strength lol. The last time Alchemist was used as a farming hero before now and not as a Mek/Medallion/VG/S&Y fighting hero, BF was the farming item of choice, and people said the opposite, that Radiance is shit and no one should get it. The two items accomplish the same general goal (provide damage, provide farming AoE ability) so one of them will just be straight-up better than the other at a given point in time (depending on minor details about the item, farming patterns, and what other items are good at the time and mesh with what the hero wants to be doing). But that doesn't mean the item that doesn't get bought is suddenly ultra-shit and free-lose bad. It's just categorically a little worse at everything, but it's not the end of the world if someone buys it. | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany7680 Posts
 Lycan (Lane) Lycan (Jungle)Created New Tab: "Utility Items" Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items" Removed Skull Basher  Shadow Shaman (Lane) Added Glimer Cape to Extension Items Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items Removed Mekansm Removed Black King Bar Removed Shiva's Guard Removed Scythe of Vyse Shadow Shaman (Middle) New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Ether Shock 2. Shackles 3. Hex) Added Magic Wand to Core Items Added Urn of Shadows to Situational Items Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items Added Force Staff to Extension Items Moved Bottle to Situational Items Removed Black King Bar Removed Mekansm Removed Shiva's Guard Removed Scythe of Vyse  Skywrath Mage (Lane)Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items Moved Rod of Atos to Extension Items Removed Tranquil Boots Removed Null Talisman Removed Scythe of Vyse Removed Ethereal Blade Skywrath Mage (Middle)Added Power Treads to Core Items Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items Moved Rod of Atos to Extension Items Removed Arcane Boots Removed Scythe of Vyse Removed Ethereal Blade  Witch DoctorAdded Arcane Boots to Core Items Removed Power Treads  Slark (Middle)Created New Tab: "Luxury Items" Added Ring of Aquila to Core Items Added Monkey King Bar to "Luxury Items" Added Moon Shard to "Luxury Items" Added Linken's Sphere to "Luxury Items" Added Boots of Travel - Level 2 to "Luxury Items" Removed Orchid of Malevolence Removed Satanic Slark (Lane)Created New Tab: "Luxury Items" Added Monkey King Bar to "Luxury Items" Added Moon Shard to "Luxury Items" Added Linken's Sphere to "Luxury Items" Added Boots of Travel - Level 2 to "Luxury Items" Removed Orchid of Malevolence Removed Satanic  Alchemist (Lane)Removed Battlefury Removed Blade Mail Alchemist (Middle)Removed Blade Mail Double-Check: Lycan (Lane) Lycan (Jungle) -- Itemization may be in an incorrect order; outdated with how he is played now. Improve Extension Item choices. Night Stalker -- I don't understand his item build which is geared towards Urn, Drums, Aghs or Vlad's. Consider Hand of Midas? Earth Spirit (Lane) Earth Spirit (Middle) -- Very likely outdated itemization. Sven -- Revise entire build# of Hero Texts Updated: 145 + Show Spoiler +  (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle)  (Jungle/Lane)   (Lane/Middle) (Jungle/Lane/Middle)  (Lane/Middle)             (Jungle/Lane) (Lane/Middle)  (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle)    (Lane/Middle)       (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle)  (Jungle/Lane) (Lane/Middle)  (Jungle/Lane) (Jungle/Lane)      (Lane/Middle)   (Lane/Middle)    (Lane/Middle)   (Lane/Middle)          (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle)          (Lane/Middle)  (Lane/Middle)   (Jungle/Lane)    (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle) (Lane/Middle)    LEFT TO DO: n/a All Hero Builds have been completely rewritten! Took from September 28 to November 29 to rewrite over 145 Hero Builds (approx. 29 items and 4 abilities per hero + general hero summary), equaling over 235,000+ words written. | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany7680 Posts
Finally have a PC at home so I can now be more on-time with responses. I tried to incorporate most the feedback, overlaying it with what we're seeing in higher pub. games to see if there were matches and then got some advice from friends as well. I didn't change Sven's build yet, because I was fearful that it may be more how he should be played rather than what works in low pub games, but I think I'll just have to suck it up and make the change. | ||
Belisarius
Australia3579 Posts
idk if it's worth changing him now but that's pretty awkward. Imo if you're going to do anything before the patch you should set him to radi->stuff, radi/oct/manta or solar blink. Waiting for the patch is perfectly sensible but anyone who loads up that build right now is going to wtf and go find a radi or solar one, even now you've removed BF. | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany7680 Posts
On December 06 2015 07:00 Belisarius wrote: Whoah alc was still on a bfury mael build? I thought you decided to change him to a radi build weeks ago. idk if it's worth changing him now but that's pretty awkward. Imo if you're going to do anything before the patch you should set him to radi->stuff, radi/oct/manta or solar blink. Waiting for the patch is perfectly sensible but anyone who loads up that build right now is going to wtf and go find a radi or solar one, even now you've removed BF. Battlefury was situational, I just removed it as an option to reduce confusion. I ultimately decided not to change him, but wanted second opinions if it was FOTM or not. So we're going to wait for the next patch to see if Alchemist is reoriented. I don't think I wrote that I was going to change him to Radiance build; but it was on a double-check list Here is the only Radiance build in-game: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=531113651 | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal7988 Posts
On December 06 2015 01:49 TheYango wrote: This is a really myopic view of item strength lol. The last time Alchemist was used as a farming hero before now and not as a Mek/Medallion/VG/S&Y fighting hero, BF was the farming item of choice, and people said the opposite, that Radiance is shit and no one should get it. The two items accomplish the same general goal (provide damage, provide farming AoE ability) so one of them will just be straight-up better than the other at a given point in time (depending on minor details about the item, farming patterns, and what other items are good at the time and mesh with what the hero wants to be doing). But that doesn't mean the item that doesn't get bought is suddenly ultra-shit and free-lose bad. It's just categorically a little worse at everything, but it's not the end of the world if someone buys it. lol oh it is. nothing bothers me more than battlefury alch right now. id almost prefer the radiance octarine build over that one (and i loathe that build too :D ). @torte still really think that you need an AC in your slark guide. probably the 3rd or 4th time im bringing this up. now more than ever with alch, slardar, and sf being popular heroes and with solar crest being a popular core pickup. | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany7680 Posts
On December 06 2015 23:00 BluemoonSC wrote: lol oh it is. nothing bothers me more than battlefury alch right now. id almost prefer the radiance octarine build over that one (and i loathe that build too :D ). @torte still really think that you need an AC in your slark guide. probably the 3rd or 4th time im bringing this up. now more than ever with alch, slardar, and sf being popular heroes and with solar crest being a popular core pickup. I just played against a Slark who went Orchid, made me see the value of it; especially with a lot of heroes who rely on an escape (Ember Spirit). Also, just played against an Alch. Mid - Radiance build; hilarious. | ||
TheYango
United States10886 Posts
Orchid is basically a very situational extension off of Lothar's that's essentially tantamount to buying a Dagon on some other heroes--you get it specifically to extend your solo-killing ability far enough that the enemy team as a whole gets shut out of the game. If you are not so far ahead that this is possible, or if your team cannot exert sufficient map control against split-pushing, the item drops in effectiveness fast especially given how many more outs can be built against it than there used to be. On December 06 2015 23:00 BluemoonSC wrote: lol oh it is. nothing bothers me more than battlefury alch right now. id almost prefer the radiance octarine build over that one (and i loathe that build too :D ). Fair. If you hate Radi+Oct Alchemist already, then BF Alch is strictly worse, lol. | ||
ahswtini
Northern Ireland16360 Posts
On December 07 2015 10:53 Torte de Lini wrote: I just played against a Slark who went Orchid, made me see the value of it; especially with a lot of heroes who rely on an escape (Ember Spirit). Also, just played against an Alch. Mid - Radiance build; hilarious. one game where a slark does well with orchid is a very small sample size. | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany7680 Posts
On December 07 2015 11:12 BluemoonSC wrote: vs ember is MAYBE the only time i'd consider getting an orchid. even still, paying attention to his charges and lurking with your shadow blade might be better. ember sometimes necessitates unorthodox orchid plays tho I was thinking of all the other heroes that can escape rather easily from Slark, but I think the stats are not ideal for him. Still an interesting item regardless. Won't be adding it, but I can see its value, despite it becoming dated. On December 07 2015 11:22 TheYango wrote: I don't think I'd ever go Orchid on Slark just because I'm against Ember/some other hero that silence fucks with. Unless you're doing especially well and are just crushing him, the amount of investment for you to get an Orchid is far more than the investment for him to buy one of multiple items that deals with it. Orchid is basically a very situational extension off of Lothar's that's essentially tantamount to buying a Dagon on some other heroes--you get it specifically to extend your solo-killing ability far enough that the enemy team as a whole gets shut out of the game. If you are not so far ahead that this is possible, or if your team cannot exert sufficient map control against split-pushing, the item drops in effectiveness fast especially given how many more outs can be built against it than there used to be. Fair. If you hate Radi+Oct Alchemist already, then BF Alch is strictly worse, lol. roger that | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal7988 Posts
On December 08 2015 04:28 Torte de Lini wrote: I was thinking of all the other heroes that can escape rather easily from Slark, but I think the stats are not ideal for him. Still an interesting item regardless. Won't be adding it, but I can see its value, despite it becoming dated. yeah i mean, ultimately if you have literally no other way to lock ember down you've probably lost anyway unless the ember is really bad at managing his remnants and you can work your way up to an abyssal (which is better for slark). so it definitely doesn't have a place in the guide. but orchid on any hero in that situation is only a bandaid until ember picks up a manta style. its a tough position to be in without any counter-play. game is hard. friendly reminder that you're still neglecting to even address the lack of an assault cuirass for slark, its the 3rd time on this page alone | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany7680 Posts
On December 08 2015 10:10 BluemoonSC wrote: yeah i mean, ultimately if you have literally no other way to lock ember down you've probably lost anyway unless the ember is really bad at managing his remnants and you can work your way up to an abyssal (which is better for slark). so it definitely doesn't have a place in the guide. but orchid on any hero in that situation is only a bandaid until ember picks up a manta style. its a tough position to be in without any counter-play. game is hard. friendly reminder that you're still neglecting to even address the lack of an assault cuirass for slark, its the 3rd time on this page alone I think Assault Cuirass sounds good on Slark; but wouldn't you want Moon Shard or Butterfly instead? Feels like no one is buying AC on Slark. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal7988 Posts
IMO if relevant heroes have MKB already, pick up an AC. if not, bfly. definitely luxury/situational. | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany7680 Posts
On December 08 2015 12:16 BluemoonSC wrote: the only benefit that moonshard gives is the attack speed and greatly enhanced night vision. those are neat, but against heroes like SF, you're probably not going to want to get a moonshard over bfly or AC. IMO if relevant heroes have MKB already, pick up an AC. if not, bfly. definitely luxury/situational. Any second opinions? I feel like with 5 items in Luxury, it wouldn't quite fit in, no? I published Slark (Middle), turns out it was never published. New patch coming very soon. Coming at a very poor time for me personally, so I'm worried at the work expected. | ||
Belisarius
Australia3579 Posts
About the only thing that's specifically slark-favoured about AC is the attack speed, and there are more efficient ways to get that at as well. Don't underrate moonshard. Up-front aspd is very powerful because of the way he converts it to agi. Of course, the thing about AC is that an AC on an awkward hero is probably still better than no AC at all, so it's technically situational on every frontliner in the game. I disagree that he's a preferred carrier, though. | ||
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