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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 179

Forum Index > The Tavern
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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States10886 Posts
June 01 2015 15:27 GMT
#3561
As far as the decision of which to actually get first, it's yet another decision that's going to be right/wrong a bunch of the time either way and which a new player has basically zero hope of actually judging correctly.

On June 02 2015 00:22 Torte de Lini wrote:
I would argue the reverse + the current meta calling for Orchid over Bloodstone.

Not really, Orchid and Bloodstone as first item are both relatively common, and Bloodstone is more core in that it's much more likely to buy Bloodstone after Orchid than it is to buy Orchid after Bloodstone (since often when you finish Bloodstone, you want some impactful later items like Sheep or BKB right after).
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
June 01 2015 15:31 GMT
#3562
When it comes to going Bloodstone first, I am hesitant and feel Orchid offers a lot more earlier on than Bloodstone does; in consideration with your team's line-up where disables and extra amp. damage work out better than yourself being able to solo someone (potentially, if you play SS well which is assumed untrue for most subscribers)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Joined October 2012
Tebellong31534 Posts
June 01 2015 15:34 GMT
#3563
i mean orchid is the solo-someone item not bloodstone
ModeratorSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-01 18:45:51
June 01 2015 15:35 GMT
#3564
Templar Assassin Templar Assassin
Created new tab: "Situational Items"
Added Sange & Yasha to "Situational Items"
Moved Drums of Endurance to "Situational Items"
Removed Yasha

Drow Ranger Drow Ranger
New Skill Build:
Moved Shadow Blade to Core Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items

Dark Seer Dark Seer
Added Clairty to Starting Items
Added Stout Shield to Starting Items
Added Guardian Greaves to Situational Items
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Added Refresher's Orb to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2

Legion Commander Legion Commander (Lane)
Legion Commander Legion Commander (Middle)
Created New Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Quelling Blade to Situational Items
Added Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Added Mjollnir to Extension Items
Added Satanic to Extension Items
Added Boots of Travel to "Luxury Items"
Moved Moon Shard to "Luxury Items"
Moved Daedalus to "Luxury Items"
Removed Shadow Blade
Removed Armlet of Mordiggan

Skywrath Mage Skywrath Mage (Lane)
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Bottle to Situational Items
Removed Arcane Boots

Gyrocopter Gyrocopter (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W Q W W R W Q Q E R E E E (1. Homing Missile 2. Rocket Barrage 3. Flak Cannon)
Added Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Moved Silver Edge to Core Items
Removed Shadow Blade

Tusk Tusk
Added Bottle to Situational Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Monkey King Bar

Kunkka Kunkka (Lane)
Kunkka Kunkka (Middle)
New Skill Build: W Q W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q R
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Added Boots of Travel to Luxury Items
Added Moon Shard to Luxury Items
Added Boots of Travel to Luxury Items
Removed Shadow Blade

Abaddon Abaddon
New Skill Build: W Q W E W R W Q Q Q R E E E (1. Aphotic Shield 2. Mist Coil 3. Curse of Avernus)
Created New Tab: "Core - Carry"
Added Arcane Boots to Core Items
Added Phase Boots to "Core - Carry"
Added Sange and Yasha to "Core - Carry"
Added Enchanted Mango to Situational Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
Added Solar Crest to Situational Items
Added Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Added Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Mekansm to Core Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Moved Vladmir's Offer to "Core - Carry"
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Blade Mail to Situational Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Removed Clarity
Removed Tranquil Boots
Removed Necromonicon
Removed Lotus Orb
Removed Agahnim's Scepter
Removed Heaven's Halberd

Storm Spirit Storm Spirit
New Skill Build: Q E E W E R E Q Q Q R W W W (1. Overload 2. Static Remnant 3. Electric Vortex)
Created Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Mantle of Intelligence to Starting Items
Added Boots of Travel to Luxury Items
Moved Bloodstone to Core Items
Moved Orchid of Malevolence to Extension Items
Moved Eye of Skadi to "Luxury Items"
Removed Tab: Core - Bloodstone
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Magic Wand
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
June 01 2015 15:35 GMT
#3565
On June 02 2015 00:34 Sn0_Man wrote:
i mean orchid is the solo-someone item not bloodstone


What I'm suggesting is that Orchid offers more solo and as a team than Bloodstone.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
June 01 2015 15:36 GMT
#3566
I updated Storm Spirit's skill build, but a situational point in W at 7-8-9 also sounds worthwhile in adding.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Joined October 2012
Tebellong31534 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-01 15:39:41
June 01 2015 15:38 GMT
#3567
I don't think that gyro build is right at all

if you are doing a missile-focused build mid then u want it maxed by 7 or at least level 3 at 5
if you aren't then you really need a value point in flak for the ability to damage at range and jungle clearing before level 10

look u can do whatever u want for storm the fact is good players are buying bloodstone first not orchid end of story.
ModeratorSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-01 15:54:55
June 01 2015 15:54 GMT
#3568
On June 02 2015 00:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
I don't think that gyro build is right at all

if you are doing a missile-focused build mid then u want it maxed by 7 or at least level 3 at 5
if you aren't then you really need a value point in flak for the ability to damage at range and jungle clearing before level 10

look u can do whatever u want for storm the fact is good players are buying bloodstone first not orchid end of story.


I misassumed that Rocket Barrage was first. I'll fix it.

Here's a sample in the last 3 major events from 1 month to now.

The International
6 Bloodstone
3 Orchid

G-League
2 Bloodstone
1 Orchid

DreamLeague
4 Bloodstone
6 Orchid

The Summit 3
1 Eul's
8 Bloodstone
1 Orchid
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States10886 Posts
June 01 2015 16:56 GMT
#3569
If you're not getting rank 3 Vortex as soon as possible, you're more likely to take rank 2 Remnant at 4 and rank 1 Vortex at 8.

That said, related to a prior discussion, I think it's wholly unproductive to have a new player guide have 4-1-4 as the default for Storm, because that relies somewhat on using Ball Lightning effectively to get Remnant hits without the need for Vortex. A new player who is not proficient at doing this is better off being 2-3-4 at 11.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-01 17:57:43
June 01 2015 17:57 GMT
#3570
On June 02 2015 01:56 TheYango wrote:
If you're not getting rank 3 Vortex as soon as possible, you're more likely to take rank 2 Remnant at 4 and rank 1 Vortex at 8.

That said, related to a prior discussion, I think it's wholly unproductive to have a new player guide have 4-1-4 as the default for Storm, because that relies somewhat on using Ball Lightning effectively to get Remnant hits without the need for Vortex. A new player who is not proficient at doing this is better off being 2-3-4 at 11.


I think we faced a similar situation before where we had to decide whether we are upholding what would be best to ease new players in or give them what they're expecting out of a guide (to answer: How do I play Storm Spirit?)

We faced a similar conundrum with another hero a few months back and I recall I went the more conventional route over ease of play.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
June 01 2015 18:10 GMT
#3571
On January 10 2015 07:56 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2015 06:57 Torte de Lini wrote:
Even without the full combo being executed well, the extra damage early on will help with laning and subsequently his early ganks after hitting ~6

It's not extra damage in ganks unless you combo perfectly. If you don't combo perfectly, you actually LOSE damage relative to 1-3-1, because rank 1 Vortex is 140 damage, and going from rank 1 to rank 3 Overload is 40 damage over 2 ranks, meaning you have to hit 4 Overload hits in order to make up for not being able to pull them into the Remnant (more if you consider that the difference in disable duration gives you an extra regular autoattack or so). That basically requires you to combo perfectly because at low levels, you won't get the chance to just throw in a bunch of extra ult jumps for more Overload damage since you won't have the mana for it (or you have to position yourself really well so that they end up bumping the remnant regardless, but that also requires really good positioning and proficiency at the hero).

1-1-4-1 isn't categorically better--it assumes relatively high proficiency with the hero for its superiority to be realized. Otherwise, it actually is losing out to having 3 pull early in a lot of ways, because as I said, pull is just more idiot-proof.


Here's your original argument
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
June 01 2015 18:15 GMT
#3572
On February 01 2015 05:04 Torte de Lini wrote:
If I can get this Juggernaut build to work, I will update it.
I thought a lot about the two sides:

  • Do I want to keep in frame my user base's level of play and objective of these guides (to showcase and teach you how to play a hero the "standard way"?

  • Or do I want to uphold what the current "standard" is?

In the end, it's about the current standard. While I understand the change from the current Juggernaut build to this new one is completely contrasting and from two sides, the idea of upholding the "current standard" overlaps with the user base's ultimate desire to play the hero the way it was intended to play (at the moment). By keeping it in an outdated form, I contradict both the original intention of this project and betray the underlying interest of people subscribing to the hero (which can be spurred by competitive play, streams or recent discussions).

So I'll finalize the guide stats, stream some Jugger matches then update the guide tonight.


Here's what I said, so I'll adjust Storm in the same vein of argument
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-01 18:41:10
June 01 2015 18:21 GMT
#3573
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
June 01 2015 18:41 GMT
#3574
double post
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
June 01 2015 18:46 GMT
#3575
Storm Spirit is properly updated now to reflect the ideal way to play him
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States10886 Posts
June 01 2015 19:34 GMT
#3576
Early game needs wand and SR.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-01 19:59:53
June 01 2015 19:57 GMT
#3577
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
June 01 2015 19:58 GMT
#3578
a
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Joined October 2012
Tebellong31534 Posts
June 01 2015 19:58 GMT
#3579
pl link broke
ModeratorSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7680 Posts
June 01 2015 19:59 GMT
#3580
On June 02 2015 04:58 Sn0_Man wrote:
pl link broke


yeah fuck its annoying me like crazy thnak you
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
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