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You are again way off the rails my friend. I have explained to you the policies that I believe will help.
The issue with China is they are currently the worst, they have the technology and reasources to be better. This statement does not mean that the US and the west also do not have the reasource and technology to be better. This not something you need to make me aware of. My job is to talk to businesses about how they can better, I go to conferences, attend webinars, meet with climate scientists, work with environmental engineers and so on.
I’m very confused to why you think that saying China is terrible makes the west great. That is the logical equivalent of me saying Brussels sprouts are terrible and you arguing that I’m saying frozen peas are delicious.
China and the US are different countries with different issues and need to be discussed separately.
Apologizing in for China’s poor behaviour for what ever reason is not helping. They are terrible, you can justify it however you like it does not change the fact that they are awful.
To stop the crisis it will take them, the US, India, Canada , Norway, so on. Literally every country to make big changes. The rich countries it is mostly over consumption issues, and the whole world is now interrelated so that want of more has lead to poorer countries doing much of the manufacturing. Taking advantage of cheap labour and low regulation, including environmental but not exclusively, safety is another one that is not the same for example. Countries like China have done it in a way that has made very few very rich with no concern for their people or their environment. This should be talked about as evil. And does not stop you or anyone else from talking about the damage the US does there is not a finite amount of bad in the world that talking about the bad of one makes the bad of another less.
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even if ..., you'd still need to make it worth it else you two should rather just PM yourselves into madness.
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No thank you, GH takes off the gloves in PMs then sends the convos to mods and ends up getting himself banned. I’d rather it just be out in the open so inevitably when he does go to the mods everyone who chimes in has the same info. Not to mention in a place where people who don’t want to read about don’t have read through 50 posts unrelated to the thread topic. I think this is a polite to them solution.
I think this is fairly solvable, I just need to find a way to explain that the US is bad for the environment because of their insatiable desire for consumption and buying products based on price and not social and environmental impact, they know better and should do better. China is bad because they are feeding this demand in a horrible way socially and environmentally, despite knowing better. The relationship is exponential more than a negative correlation one. Both need to and can do better. There is no real argument here that is just fact.
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Jimmi you raise a fair point in the first paragraph. "I’m very confused to why you think that saying China is terrible makes the west great." And for whatever reason, this illogical sentiment has to be repeatedly spoken. I've started question the motives of others why they feel inclined to tell me china is bad, instead of telling me solutions to what we're facing now.
and I'm just going to call it for what it is, racism. The same people who spoke ill of the Chinese, Chinese Americans / Asians, are the same ones who are currently using the political climate to facilitate their hate. they just now have a political channel to funnel their racism. The whole I have to put down Asians, to prop myself up reeks of inferiority complex. You know these sentiments are true if you even remotely watch TI, and get a general consensus to what people type in twitch chat.
"Fuck china, free hong kong, ching chong, china numba 1" along with "biased crowd" when all western crowds are completely biased towards the home team in every TI. all these sentiments are well, racial sentiments that have only been magnified due to the current political climate, but more importantly these were the same sentiments ushered far before it became a PC issue.
I find it odd such focus is on the ills of china and not the betterment of america. let's call it out for what it is, racism.
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On August 25 2019 01:07 JimmiC wrote:
You are again way off the rails my friend. I have explained to you the policies that I believe will help.
The issue with China is they are currently the worst
Actually they are leaders when it comes to investing in renewable energies. It's a real issue for them, their citizens (comrades?) are about to riot because of it.
The US are the worst, their President even said it was a "Chinese hoax" while they are the biggest polluters, only behind the richest oil nations which do whatthefuckeries in the desert with their insane wealth. But anyway, leading countries misbehaving on this matter should never be an excuse for other countries to not make the efforts required. We're speaking about thousands of billions of people yet to be born.
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It is not racism to say China is awful for tge environment it is just fact. They are also number 1 for solar power, this is also fact. And it is fact that what they have done in renewables has not offset tge coal and other issues. Solar also has its issues. California has cut back on it because of the enviromental concerns. We have some really large wind farms and they are mostly positive but also have issues.
There are a lot of things the chinese could do better such as not displacing millions of people who dont want to be displaced for not needed super large engineering achievements. Using the best possible environmental ly friendly engineering techniques instead of the ones that use the most concrete and so on.
My main point is actually that there is a lot to be done in all countries, who is worst does not even matter.
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You're vastly overestimating China's wealth. They are numerous and having a few hundred millions of them reaching the middle class status does not mean they've solved their poverty issues. You have to understand that people who don't have their basic needs satisfied won't care a lot about global warming
Besides
My main point is actually that there is a lot to be done in all countries, who is worst does not even matter.
The issue with China is they are currently the worst
The Chinese government is terrifying, Chinese citizens understand it more than anyone. But it's common sense that they should put their priority elsewhere. We should be happy they're putting so much efforts on environmental issues, they don't have nearly as much wealth as us. On the other hand the richest countries in the world barely try.
I can only agree with saocyn.
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China is not putting in tons of effort. They greenwash with the solar panels they produce.
I do agree the should combat poverty, sadly their leadership is interested in making themselves billions of dollars and their friends and family's. China is not a place that should not be copied or praised.
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Why not just call this the Environmental Politics Thread or something
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That would be cool with me if a mod wants to change it. I was just trying to move the unrelated disussion off the otger thread so no one got annoyed.
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From what I understand America is full of people like me who buy cars with V8 engines, leave the computer on 24/7, and eat meat at least 3x a day
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An environmental politics thread is probably a good idea in the same way the gun thread is a good idea.
I have yet to read through Bernie's Green New Deal but I'm looking forward to it. From the synopsis I've seen around it looks good, especially moving to renewable transport, I think thatll be a tough sell to all the Americans who own a car that isn't electric but tbh if I could sell my car to the government for money towards an electric car that'd be something I'd be excited to do.
Even just managing to implement robust public transit with renewables would be a good step to me. God knows the US needs better public transit.
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I think being aggressive with these plans is a good move. It is going to be hard to get everything through anyways. Your not touching Trumps base anyway, do something that makes millennial want to vote. I have not read through the whole thing either but I agree transport is a great place to start tge US has always been about cars. It would be nice to see some regulations about planned obsolescence and single use products as well.
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On August 25 2019 10:35 BerserkSword wrote:
From what I understand America is full of people like me who buy cars with V8 engines, leave the computer on 24/7, and eat meat at least 3x a day
Yeah which is part of the heart of the issue. There isn't a way to make western life as we know it sustainable and things that help around the margins like consumer choice and reusables/waste reduction make us feel better and slow/reduce the impending catastrophe slightly but they miss the issue at the center which is the dominant economic system and our way of life.
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It's super unfair of the "western" world to now tell china to stop polluting the environment. Sure, China is the biggest polluter with heavy industry and energy production, but we are buying the products the make for cheap so that we can have more efficient industries. The only way for change is going to be limiting our own consumerism by drastically increasing prizes for the worst offenders like meat, cars, electicity. Only if it hurts our bank accounts to eat meat every day, we will stop doing it. And then, when the western world drastically reduces consumerism, we can ask countries like China to do their part as well.
The problem is just that there is absolutely no political will for this discussion, as politicians don't want to suicide their career for necessary changes that can only be started by taking away the toys of the public. And the public will not start freely giving away their toys if they are not forced. And then there is the issue with social equality becoming worse if we just make the toys more expensive.
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On August 26 2019 03:38 Broetchenholer wrote:
It's super unfair of the "western" world to now tell china to stop polluting the environment. Sure, China is the biggest polluter with heavy industry and energy production, but we are buying the products the make for cheap so that we can have more efficient industries. The only way for change is going to be limiting our own consumerism by drastically increasing prizes for the worst offenders like meat, cars, electicity. Only if it hurts our bank accounts to eat meat every day, we will stop doing it. And then, when the western world drastically reduces consumerism, we can ask countries like China to do their part as well.
The problem is just that there is absolutely no political will for this discussion, as politicians don't want to suicide their career for necessary changes that can only be started by taking away the toys of the public. And the public will not start freely giving away their toys if they are not forced. And then there is the issue with social equality becoming worse if we just make the toys more expensive.
I would disagree with you to the extent that I think it is fair to pressure China to clean up their act, provided that we are holding up our end of the bargain as well.
I hear theres an upcoming presidential candidate who has some ideas
Also JimmiC good thread with a lot to talk about, but does the OP really need to be a snippet of your latest back and forth with GH?
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On August 27 2019 00:48 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2019 03:38 Broetchenholer wrote:
It's super unfair of the "western" world to now tell china to stop polluting the environment. Sure, China is the biggest polluter with heavy industry and energy production, but we are buying the products the make for cheap so that we can have more efficient industries. The only way for change is going to be limiting our own consumerism by drastically increasing prizes for the worst offenders like meat, cars, electicity. Only if it hurts our bank accounts to eat meat every day, we will stop doing it. And then, when the western world drastically reduces consumerism, we can ask countries like China to do their part as well.
The problem is just that there is absolutely no political will for this discussion, as politicians don't want to suicide their career for necessary changes that can only be started by taking away the toys of the public. And the public will not start freely giving away their toys if they are not forced. And then there is the issue with social equality becoming worse if we just make the toys more expensive. I would disagree with you to the extent that I think it is fair to pressure China to clean up their act, provided that we are holding up our end of the bargain as well. I hear theres an upcoming presidential candidate who has some ideas Also JimmiC good thread with a lot to talk about, but does the OP really need to be a snippet of your latest back and forth with GH?
The thread has grown into something far better than I intended which was just to move a not related to SA politics thread off of it. So now that it has gone with positive way I'll update the OP and then hopefully a Mod will update the title at some point.
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On August 27 2019 00:48 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2019 03:38 Broetchenholer wrote:
It's super unfair of the "western" world to now tell china to stop polluting the environment. Sure, China is the biggest polluter with heavy industry and energy production, but we are buying the products the make for cheap so that we can have more efficient industries. The only way for change is going to be limiting our own consumerism by drastically increasing prizes for the worst offenders like meat, cars, electicity. Only if it hurts our bank accounts to eat meat every day, we will stop doing it. And then, when the western world drastically reduces consumerism, we can ask countries like China to do their part as well.
The problem is just that there is absolutely no political will for this discussion, as politicians don't want to suicide their career for necessary changes that can only be started by taking away the toys of the public. And the public will not start freely giving away their toys if they are not forced. And then there is the issue with social equality becoming worse if we just make the toys more expensive. I would disagree with you to the extent that I think it is fair to pressure China to clean up their act, provided that we are holding up our end of the bargain as well. I hear theres an upcoming presidential candidate who has some ideas Also JimmiC good thread with a lot to talk about, but does the OP really need to be a snippet of your latest back and forth with GH?
Well, it can be expected that everybody does as much as is possible for their society and economy. But it's very unfair to go to the countries trying their best t ocatch up to our standard of living and just say that now that we fucked it up and had our 60 years of paradise, they are not allowed in. 1 billion chinese people want computers? Not gonna happen, they are not 100% emission free yet so they are not allowed to increase their energy consumption per capita. Of course it is reasonable to assume that if we are pulling our weight and help the less developed countries to do the same that they will try their best to reach a richer society in a less polluting way.
But that requires our effort. We need to invest massively in development projects all over the world to make the transition feasible for countries who can not prioritize climate policies over improving living conditions. And as we are not even able to say that we need to consume less in political discourse without being laughed out of the room, there is no reason to ever talk about any other countries then our own.
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On August 27 2019 05:56 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2019 00:48 Aveng3r wrote:On August 26 2019 03:38 Broetchenholer wrote:
It's super unfair of the "western" world to now tell china to stop polluting the environment. Sure, China is the biggest polluter with heavy industry and energy production, but we are buying the products the make for cheap so that we can have more efficient industries. The only way for change is going to be limiting our own consumerism by drastically increasing prizes for the worst offenders like meat, cars, electicity. Only if it hurts our bank accounts to eat meat every day, we will stop doing it. And then, when the western world drastically reduces consumerism, we can ask countries like China to do their part as well.
The problem is just that there is absolutely no political will for this discussion, as politicians don't want to suicide their career for necessary changes that can only be started by taking away the toys of the public. And the public will not start freely giving away their toys if they are not forced. And then there is the issue with social equality becoming worse if we just make the toys more expensive. I would disagree with you to the extent that I think it is fair to pressure China to clean up their act, provided that we are holding up our end of the bargain as well. I hear theres an upcoming presidential candidate who has some ideas Also JimmiC good thread with a lot to talk about, but does the OP really need to be a snippet of your latest back and forth with GH? Well, it can be expected that everybody does as much as is possible for their society and economy. But it's very unfair to go to the countries trying their best t ocatch up to our standard of living and just say that now that we fucked it up and had our 60 years of paradise, they are not allowed in. 1 billion chinese people want computers? Not gonna happen, they are not 100% emission free yet so they are not allowed to increase their energy consumption per capita. Of course it is reasonable to assume that if we are pulling our weight and help the less developed countries to do the same that they will try their best to reach a richer society in a less polluting way. But that requires our effort. We need to invest massively in development projects all over the world to make the transition feasible for countries who can not prioritize climate policies over improving living conditions. And as we are not even able to say that we need to consume less in political discourse without being laughed out of the room, there is no reason to ever talk about any other countries then our own.
There is a whole bunch of not throwing stones from a glass house style arguments that are true. It is a little bit like Leonardo Dicaprio flying in his private jet and using his yacht while being a environmentalist. But it is also true that there are many projects being under taken in China that have very little to do with raising the standard of living of the billion and much more to do with making a very select few very rich. We should talk bad about those projects and we should not be fooled by green washing by their dictatorship government.
One of the biggest problems with the environment is that almost everyone knows things they could be doing that would be better for the environment but they are simply not willing to do them because they would be harder or less convenient. Generally people are able to justify away this behavior by the reality that they themselves are just a minuscule part of the problem. However, it is also true that if everyone who thought this way actually made those changes they are aware of it would make a huge difference.
China in someways can make bigger changes faster than most people because it can force their people to do things in ways we can not. No developed free nation could just move millions of people because it wanted to build the worlds biggest Airport for example. So if the Chinese government made some big choices to be better for the environment they could probably accomplish some pretty amazing things.
The main point of my argument is not that China needs to x, y, z, it is that every country needs to do x, y, and z. They all have pretty sound reasons on why they are not doing it, but at some point humanity is not going to be given a choice. The question is if we make those changes in time or not.
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