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On December 04 2017 23:55 nothingmuch wrote:
How about we all agree that the initial "this hero is weak" sentiment out of some was way, way off and purely due to the hero being more complicated than old Viper, the buffs were unnecessary and are very likely to be reversed. Pango op.
Nope. Especially when Bloodseeker is still somewhat relevant. Pangolier SUCKS against Bloodseeker.
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There are obviously counters to the hero. But that doesn't make the hero weak in general!
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Counters...? Why would you want to counter a pos3/4 ? Sounds like a trap to me.
That said, I suppose that on paper, BS is somewhat decent vs pango. Much less so if/when pango gets a linken, though, and pango can easily farm that, or anything really, no problem. Linken ain't even bad on him (mana, some escape...), and you can give the buff to your cores anyway. So... BS, meh...
I usually find pudge to be the most annoying when I pango. The hooks (cancel your ult), the HP pool... And he doesn't just counter you, it's an overall strong roamer as well, making it one of the best "pango counter" in that he is strong vs you, but still provides a lot for his team - much more than a pos4 BS would, anyway.
edit : ranged lineup (drow, sniper and shit) can also be a nightmare to play against as pango. It's not fun when they can just shoot you down during car mode 
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On December 09 2017 03:01 Murlox wrote:
Counters...? Why would you want to counter a pos3/4 ? Sounds like a trap to me.
That said, I suppose that on paper, BS is somewhat decent vs pango. Much less so if/when pango gets a linken, though, and pango can easily farm that, or anything really, no problem. Linken ain't even bad on him (mana, some escape...), and you can give the buff to your cores anyway. So... BS, meh...
Because 3/4 heroes are supposed to be good against enemy cores. If you pick a core hero that doesn't care about them, they're that much less useful.
Also, Bloodrage first to pop Linkins before using Rupture makes that item rather moot.
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On December 09 2017 08:04 M.S.Bismarck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2017 03:01 Murlox wrote:
Counters...? Why would you want to counter a pos3/4 ? Sounds like a trap to me.
That said, I suppose that on paper, BS is somewhat decent vs pango. Much less so if/when pango gets a linken, though, and pango can easily farm that, or anything really, no problem. Linken ain't even bad on him (mana, some escape...), and you can give the buff to your cores anyway. So... BS, meh... Because 3/4 heroes are supposed to be good against enemy cores. If you pick a core hero that doesn't care about them, they're that much less useful. Also, Bloodrage first to pop Linkins before using Rupture makes that item rather moot.
Thats probably much easier said than done, considering the range of bloodrage and pangos escape kills, also linkens kinda hurts his item timings he really likes a value javelin into diffusal and then blink is amazing etc chucking a linkens in there doesnt feel smooth unless ur having an amazing offlane
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On December 09 2017 03:01 Murlox wrote:Counters...? Why would you want to counter a pos3/4 ? Sounds like a trap to me. That said, I suppose that on paper, BS is somewhat decent vs pango. Much less so if/when pango gets a linken, though, and pango can easily farm that, or anything really, no problem. Linken ain't even bad on him (mana, some escape...), and you can give the buff to your cores anyway. So... BS, meh... I usually find pudge to be the most annoying when I pango. The hooks (cancel your ult), the HP pool... And he doesn't just counter you, it's an overall strong roamer as well, making it one of the best "pango counter" in that he is strong vs you, but still provides a lot for his team - much more than a pos4 BS would, anyway. edit : ranged lineup (drow, sniper and shit) can also be a nightmare to play against as pango. It's not fun when they can just shoot you down during car mode
Because this pos 3/4 can solokill most cores that don't have a bkb. And initiators/disruptive heroes are always high value targets.
I think pudge goes both ways, swashbuckle allows him to get out of his rot until lvl 6 and with shield-crash pango is pretty dangerous to him even if he gets the hook. But it's certainly annoying to deal with during RT.
The hardest counter is probably treant, it's a support that can break rolling thunder even if you have linkens, you don't have dot damage during RT so living armor reduces damage by 560 (+ some hp through regen) and he's decent in lane against him.
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When I first pick Pango I do get counter picked a lot. But I am usually happy about it, because my team usually has a good game because of it. And I am still a disruption / damage dealer / tank.
Atm I build mana boots and a quick blink.
With Q and W (and the boots) you can farm every wave without a javelin. After mana boots and blink it really depends on the game what you get. I still like two Javelins because I did miss some kills, when I didn't buy them. But I'm trying different items after blink now. Meteor Hammer is fun if cast during Ult ;D
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Give me a blood seeker idc, you ever Q then W on a bloodraged seeker? Waterfall of damage. Especially since most of the time you get ruptured, he casts blood rite, then as its about to go off he walks into you. you can burst him down since he closes the gap making rupture useless (to a degree) and you take 280dmg or less from the rite, avoiding much distance as damage. I have not had a problem against seeker yet. because also you can have linkens in time.
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i think the idea is that you're feeding if you walk into his lane. can't have linkens in time if he's LV6 and you're 3/4.
morph is suddenly working fine vs AM when you're on good farm, but not when AM is hopelessly fat and keeps you down.
i think the hero is weak vs difficult-to-gank lanes, then spends a lot of time walking around with no items early game, or jungling in dead time instead which is honestly quite useless for the team early on.
if you haven't tried euls already, it's quite a solid setup. it's i believe around half a second they get to do anything after you hit them and pop yourself up.
list of interruptions on the ball. there are a few more.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/7dr5d4/pangolier_ball_interuption/?sort=top
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How you get linkens on time vs hero that usually is solo lane freefarming and can use bloodrage to get rid of linkens anyway. Few days ago i picked pong and enemy naga shut down my teamfight so hard from lvl 6 onwards that by the time i had linkens enemy offlaner has made more than enough impact unlike me. If you want to pick that hero for offlane never pick it early or you will feel worhless given your oponents counter pick you.
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Hero needs to be hit with the nerf stick quick.
Cooldown of his ult needs to hit with the same nerfs that Dark willow was hit with
Javelins stacking should not be as effective as it is, meaning multiple javs will not stack
and possiby mana talent needs to be removed.
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I don't think this hero is OP anyway, at least he needs to be played in the offlane unlike dark willow who can solo kill carries as a support lol.
If you want a cheese counter, centaur with return aura talent rekt this hero completely in the late game. But then you have a centaur.
Treant is definitely the most practical counter. You can root him up to 7second combo-ing with overgrowth bypassing linkens. Using overgrowth to stop his ball form also usually roots him in a very bad position.
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Pango can quite easily kill carries solo as a sup, his ult damage along with the 2 second shieldcrash talent are insane. Get a blink, deal 1150 magic damage at 15, get a rollback and another hit, deal 1725 damage. If you hit your ultimate in a perfect spot you end up at like 3k damage at 18.
He's the hero that ended up the highest costing hero in Midas Mode by quite a margin. I know that Midas Mode wasn't the most serious tournament, but his game impact was huge on average.
Also "you have a treant" is quite a negative argument as well.
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So swashbuckle is not a carry skill? Basically it is a fixed damage nuke that is only buffed by modifiers like pierce, bash and mana burn? So there's no reason to go damage times on the hero right?
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There's no real reason to go physical damage outside of being good at chasing, but since MKB and Diffu add 175 pure and 160 physical damage respectively to an eight sec cd spell that can hit 2 camps, there is some synergy with right-click items.
So in high level mmr pubs the builds that have established themselves are mostly RoB/Arcanes/urn/SR+tranqs either into Javelin Diffu (Blink) Mkb Blink/Basher/utility or into Blink Radiance utility (Shivas, Linkens, Lotus).
The first build optimizes your early farm speed and chasing potential while the second one optimizes your teamfight impact. I probably won't go radiance if I have a bad game, but I'm by no means an expert on the hero.
I still think the hero was made for veil, but ppl don't seem to agree. I get though that it's hard to fit blink+veil into a build when Javelin is very tempting, you are kinda slot starved and can flashfarm waves anyways.
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The biggest problem with this hero, are 2 things actually. 1) Jav stacking is actually insane on this hero. 2) His ult is too good for the CD it has. It is NEVER off cooldown, and for how much it does, it shldnt even have a 40 sec cd at lvl 1. which is jsut BS.
The thing is this hero actually hits its power peak relatively fast, and with minimal farm too for DPS.
You reach lvl 7, and u stack 2 javelins on this hero, and i gaurantee, you will be able to solo kill 90% of the heroes on the map with Q into W, Ult, and another Q. That is actually, lol with actually just 1 single hit of rolling thunder it is actually like 1.2k worth of magical and physical burst in total, and up to 1.6k with more rolling thunder hits.
And this is all at lvl 7 too. and there are very few heroes that can interrupt this at all, due to swashbuckle coming off CD just when rolling thunder ends, and you will always be able to get 2 Qs off, once at the start to initiate, and the 2nd at the end of rolling thunder.
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The power peak at 1 jav and even 2 javs is just too big for this hero, considering how easy the build up is, and how fast this hero farms.
How many supports do u think even at lvl 10, can survive a close to 500 damage burst on a 8 second CD? with only like 3-4k worth of items for a pango to do that much damage?
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Has anyone done the math of casual cristlis in mid game after the core items instead of 3th jav or some shit like that does it work enough than the additional 5% chanche dor proc on jav
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Just for swashbuckle crystalys will never beat javelin unless you don't procc your passive and stack massive amounts of minus armor. I did a quick calc and you'd have to be hitting a target that has <(-20) armor and have the talent. So basically never.
To boot since all the offensive itemization revolves around on hit effects which don't get amplified by crits, it doesn't do that much for your right-click either.
On December 28 2017 21:02 Kaj wrote:
The biggest problem with this hero, are 2 things actually. 1) Jav stacking is actually insane on this hero. 2) His ult is too good for the CD it has. It is NEVER off cooldown, and for how much it does, it shldnt even have a 40 sec cd at lvl 1. which is jsut BS.
The thing is this hero actually hits its power peak relatively fast, and with minimal farm too for DPS.
You reach lvl 7, and u stack 2 javelins on this hero, and i gaurantee, you will be able to solo kill 90% of the heroes on the map with Q into W, Ult, and another Q. That is actually, lol with actually just 1 single hit of rolling thunder it is actually like 1.2k worth of magical and physical burst in total, and up to 1.6k with more rolling thunder hits.
And this is all at lvl 7 too. and there are very few heroes that can interrupt this at all, due to swashbuckle coming off CD just when rolling thunder ends, and you will always be able to get 2 Qs off, once at the start to initiate, and the 2nd at the end of rolling thunder.
If I'd be IF I'd prolly put the ultimate at 120 seconds cd and make it immune to snares once the magic immunity kicks in.
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Hero farms too fast for what he does. Needs his wave clear nerfed or a big ult nerf. I don’t mind his ukt being his thing, just reduce his farm potential to compensate. Hero is too hard to shut down.
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