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I love DotA. Much of the game as well as it’s complexness and it’s mechanics and unique characters are just some of the reasons why I prefer this game over others like League of Legends and Heroes of the Storm among other MOBA(ugh)/ARTS games. However, right now I am not here to talk about that, I am talking more about DotA’s competitive scene.
Lately as a lot of people have noticed, there has been a spike in Tournaments in DotA2 especially during the middle to latter part of 2014. Some of which had conflicting dates, some had on-site problems, some had unpaid prize pools. This oversaturation of tournaments has led to several teams dropping out of some tournaments due to burnout. It has gotten to the point that yesterday, EternalEnvy, the captain and carry player for Cloud9 had to post a blog about it. In it, he laments DotA2’s competitive scene and the teams as well, for being forced to play tournaments in order to secure themselves a spot in the next International (think of it as the Wrestlemania or Wimbledon of DotA), as well as the poor quality of casters and tournaments these days, and other tournament related problems (e.g. having to go through many qualifiers, tickets, etc).
Indeed, the whole blog post has taken DotA by storm. Some casters got pissed off by the comments Envy gave, while some pro players actually agreed about his thoughts on tournaments. Thorin even posted a video as a possible response to most of the issues that Envy raised.
You might be wondering though, what do I, a person with far less MMR than a pro player, have to say about this? A lot, really. I’ve been following the competitive DotA2 scene ever since The International 2 and I am amazed and happy at how DotA as an esport has grown for the past 2 years. Indeed there are a lot of issues that plagued the scene back then, but most of them became even more relevant right now as Envy posted his blog. I do think as spectators, we also have the right to air our sentiments regarding this issue. Heck, aside from 6.83, this has been one of the most talked about topics in reddit right now. Goes to show anyone has a voice and a opinion regarding this.
Given this, I’ll try to propose possible solutions to the problems mentioned above. Some of these are based from Thorin’s video since he raised a lot of good suggestions that are in-line with my suggestions as well.
Firstly, players should seriously talk with tournament organizers, team managers/staff and even casters about their problems. I’m pretty much summarizing Thorin’s thoughts here and say that players should really talk to these people more. Pretty sure that these guys are willing to hear your complains and suggestions about these issues, and I do think that constant communication between all parties involved (and yes this also includes Valve) is important. Even a private message on skype or a round table discussion IRL would work. As long as there is cooperation between all parties concerned then we could expect changes.
Second, the structure of tournaments has to change. I won’t use the example of Tennis here since I am not a fan of tennis to be honest. However I do have a system in mind that might be similar to some systems. We could have the International as pretty much the culminating event of the DotA2 “year” and then we could have like 4-5 premier tournaments (ESL, MLG, DreamHack, Starladder Star Series, maybe i-League), and several professional level tournaments (synergy league, esportal, WEC, i-League, etc.) a few gimmicky events as well (The Summit, DotACinema’s captain’s draft tourney) and some minor/amateur tournaments at the very bottom (e.g. the lower brackets of starladder/joindota league, some amateur tournaments). Then maybe a point system could be used in order for teams to know if they are on top or on bottom and if they are qualified for a TI invite, or if they need to go through the TI qualifiers. For example, winning first in MLG will earn them 25 points, second 15, third 10, winning first in ESL will earn them 15 points, second 10, third 5, etc. etc. The higher the points, the more tournaments you can enter and by the time the TI qualifiers come, the teams with the highest amounts of points will be invited and those with lower points but above a certain threshold will have to duke it out in qualifiers.
This may solve the problem with TI, but what about qualifiers in the premier/professional tournaments? IMO, Players and teams should be able to be invited directly to these tournaments (and still have the right to refuse if they really can’t go) but only if they have obtained certain amount of points. For example, EG has 50 points but in order to be directly invited to lets say MLG they would have to get like 60 points, otherwise they have to go through qualifiers.
This is one way to approach the problem with tournament qualifiers and invites. There may be better ideas but this is one approach and the one I will recommend.
Third, when it comes to casters, they can only improve further. Indeed, I do think all casters are doing their best when it comes to casting games, but there is a need to step up their game. But then again the fact that there are so many tournaments going on at once makes it hard for them to keep track of which player picks what hero, what their recent picks are, etc. Although to be honest I don’t get the problem with the hype some casters have. Maybe I get too easily hyped myself without having relying on caster hype. I dunno.
Fourth and last, there is a need for a players organization in the competitive DotA Scene. Not in the same sense as KeSPa or ACE, but an organization by players for players. Puppey raised this somewhere but I forgot which interview this was raised. Perhaps this organization should keep players from doing stupid things like match fixing (we don’t need more 322s in DotA seriously.), as well as to help the overall welfare of DotA2 players in general. This organization should be in the forefront of defending players’ rights and must be willing to help players in whatever way possible.
To summarize and conclude, all these are my suggestions to help improve the DotA2 competitive scene. I’m pretty sure there are better suggestions there, but in my opinion these will help out a lot. I do hope that players, team owners/managers/staff, tournament organizers and casters could help sort things out. I have faith in the DotA2 community. I do hope we can get through this rough sea and be able to show that DotA2 is the best esport.
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hird, when it comes to casters, they can only improve further. Indeed, I do think all casters are doing their best when it comes to casting games, but there is a need to step up their game. But then again the fact that there are so many tournaments going on at once makes it hard for them to keep track of which player picks what hero, what their recent picks are, etc. Although to be honest I don’t get the problem with the hype some casters have. Maybe I get too easily hyped myself without having relying on caster hype. I dunno.
No , Its really not by going to 1 website and typing in a Team name.
Please dont make excuses for the laziness.
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I think the TI problem can easily be solved by putting up a qualifier. I dont see why a team should be invited because they won a tournament half a year ago. A qualifier guarantees that the best teams continue. The real problem is that there's a lot of cash flowing and tournaments have an interest to get the money. So the oversaturation wont just go away unless valve can streamline tournaments like blizz did to something like 1/month.
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On December 18 2014 01:57 Blackfeather wrote: I think the TI problem can easily be solved by putting up a qualifier. I dont see why a team should be invited because they won a tournament half a year ago. A qualifier guarantees that the best teams continue. The real problem is that there's a lot of cash flowing and tournaments have an interest to get the money. So the oversaturation wont just go away unless valve can streamline tournaments like blizz did to something like 1/month.
Actually, I think this is a big problem with the mentality of sports fans everywhere. Having a qualifier does NOT guarantee that the best teams continue (taking best as meaning most likely to win a BO1001 over the course of a period of time, not the team who performed the best in that particular bracket). Take the giants-patriots super bowl - just because the 12-6 giants beat the 18-0 patriots in that one game by 3 points does not make them better, nor does it make them more likely to win an extended series or beat any given common opponent. Invitations allow you to build up a larger resume which reflects your true skill level, unless qualifiers are going to run much longer to give teams a chance to separate themselves.
This is easily demonstrated by seeing that when you have qualifiers, you can have things like Secret making it into most lans but getting knocked out once in a while (even in simultaneously occurring qualifiers). Does this mean they are the most qualified team for one tournament but not the other at the same time? Or does this mean that qualifiers inject a certain amount of randomness?
I can definitely see why qualifiers are necessary and maybe even desired on a multitude of levels, but to claim that you always get the best teams out is not accurate.
Edit: just want to point out that this is exacerbated by having a bracket at the end of a round robin. That tends to take a snapshot of the team's skill or understanding of the metagame at one particular time rather than their overall level of performance over time. It doesn't make it unfair, it just increases variance. For example, see Empire's sudden steamroller run through the D2L playoffs.
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On December 18 2014 01:57 Blackfeather wrote: I think the TI problem can easily be solved by putting up a qualifier. I dont see why a team should be invited because they won a tournament half a year ago. A qualifier guarantees that the best teams continue. The real problem is that there's a lot of cash flowing and tournaments have an interest to get the money. So the oversaturation wont just go away unless valve can streamline tournaments like blizz did to something like 1/month.
There is no oversaturation. There are more teams in Dota2 than just EG, Secret, NaVi, C9 and the few other T1 or T1.5 ones. You need managers to pick more wisely, restricting the amount of tournaments is only going to benefit the big teams and hurt the smaller ones - which, in an already top-heavy game, is absurd.
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I don't think going 100% invite-based for premier tournaments is a good solution. It just makes the scene even more of a celebrity-based old boys club, which is hugely disheartening to a lot of up-and-coming players.
That said, the absurd qualifiers for qualifiers for qualifiers for qualifiers ad infinitum approach used to boost the number of games on tickets needs to go (looking at you, Summit).
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The problems I see in both situations: 1) Have qualifiers: Tired players, overworked, serves little purpose when teams can't fully commit. Also qualifiers run the risk of teams not being able to attend finals, or practice appropriately for said final lan or not. Qualifiers for every region seems sort of unnecessary and drawn out, to justify amount of games in quanitity (thus to feel justified in selling/buying a ticket).
A possible problem also, which I don't see arising anytime soon is... When teams realize there are too many tournaments and have to select, if the saturation continues, some teams may decide to enter either tournaments without competitive teams of their respective tier.
2) Have Invitees: Teams are selected based on results, but not necessarily ones that reflect recent results. Think Kaipi for TI3. Some teams while on the cusp or arguably deserve to be there will be excluded. The problem with regional invites too is similar, while teams like MUFC and others represent other countries, if they don't have a shot at even winning a game, probably should not be invited.
I on the other hand would lean towards a style similar to old MLG. Teams that are known and have participated previously get direct invites, while teams that are lesser and trying to prove themselves play short qualifier tournaments for a shot at entering the bracket.
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On December 18 2014 03:44 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 01:57 Blackfeather wrote: I think the TI problem can easily be solved by putting up a qualifier. I dont see why a team should be invited because they won a tournament half a year ago. A qualifier guarantees that the best teams continue. The real problem is that there's a lot of cash flowing and tournaments have an interest to get the money. So the oversaturation wont just go away unless valve can streamline tournaments like blizz did to something like 1/month. There is no oversaturation. There are more teams in Dota2 than just EG, Secret, NaVi, C9 and the few other T1 or T1.5 ones. You need managers to pick more wisely, restricting the amount of tournaments is only going to benefit the big teams and hurt the smaller ones - which, in an already top-heavy game, is absurd. Sounds harsh but i'd rather loose some of the smaller teams and get the enthusiasm back for the players, casters and viewers than have a stagnated game in two or three years where the quality drops and the hype is gone.
Also as Envy pointed out, coL defeating EG should have been a major upset, but it wasnt for anyone who isnt a diehard Complexity fan. If there's less hype, there's also less feeling of reward or loss, there's less value to a match. Exposure depends on hype as well.
Ofc making t2 and t3 team pay for itself gets harder with less tourneys, but t1 teams travel to a lot of tourneys already so it's not easy for them anyways. Also if t2 and t3 teams beat t1 teams because they are overworked and dont really care anymore that can hardly be good for the scene.
On a side note: I dont think that Valve needs to cut down stuff like JDLeague that doesnt count for their invites anyways. I dont see what stops dota 2 from having a code A and B aka tourneys that dont matter that much for the big teams because they are not important for ti qualification.
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How do I multiquote here?
@grandgrant Grant you are my hero. You are a better fucking flower than n0tail. Just letting you know.
But seriously though, yeah I agree that casters should do their homework more. Then again, it's part of them stepping up their game as well.
@TheTenthDoc That's why the point system exists. For a lower tier team to get to a higher tier, they have to accumulate points by winning tournaments. Once they earn enough points, they could have a chance of getting invited. If they're not invited, they can go for the qualifiers, provided they meet the minimum number of points to enter that qualifier for an event.
To those discussing about qualifiers vs. invites: Again, this could be solved by the point system discussed in my initial post, especially for professional/premier events. Invite teams based on who has the highest points per region, and have the rest of the slots duke it out through qualifiers, in which teams can only join if they have certain number of points.
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EEnvy is blogging like the dota2 scene was created for the players when its actually created to serve the consumers needs. I wish people (proplayers and fans in general) would wake up and smell the coffee for once.
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On December 19 2014 17:49 Akari-Akaza wrote: How do I multiquote here?
Control click the post you want to quote so it opens in a new tab. Copy the text there and paste it to the reply box below. Repeat until you have all the posts you want to quote.
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On December 19 2014 17:49 Akari-Akaza wrote: How do I multiquote here?
@grandgrant Grant you are my hero. You are a better fucking flower than n0tail. Just letting you know.
But seriously though, yeah I agree that casters should do their homework more. Then again, it's part of them stepping up their game as well.
@TheTenthDoc That's why the point system exists. For a lower tier team to get to a higher tier, they have to accumulate points by winning tournaments. Once they earn enough points, they could have a chance of getting invited. If they're not invited, they can go for the qualifiers, provided they meet the minimum number of points to enter that qualifier for an event.
To those discussing about qualifiers vs. invites: Again, this could be solved by the point system discussed in my initial post, especially for professional/premier events. Invite teams based on who has the highest points per region, and have the rest of the slots duke it out through qualifiers, in which teams can only join if they have certain number of points. I think your system somewhat solves the overwork part of the players, but it doesnt solve the oversaturation for viewers and the overwork/routine for casters. I have to add that it's rather complicated, because the benchmarks would have to change depending on how many tourneys already happened. Else there are going to be only qualifiers at the start and no relevant qualifiers at the end of the dota year. Also for a good TI you would need to make it back-heavy in terms of points, because performing half a year ago doesnt mean that you are in good shape now.
I still dont get why we dont just make TI all qualifier based. That might lead to having 4 big tourneys a year and not just 3 nice ones and TI (although I'm not sure that would be good). This way teams could just decide not to attend and not feel pressured that much. That would mean that big teams go to the high-pricepool tourneys and everyone else can still go to the small ones. Also if tourneys just stack to much teams will just not go, so the tournament managers actually need to communicate among each others to get good teams.
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