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Hello Liquiddota,
today I want to write about the problems that come along in the 5k+ MMR Range. I know many people who set their goal to get to 5000 MMR, but there is a sad truth when you reach it and move further to 6000 MMR.
My own goal was to reach 6000 MMR and to be listed on the EU-Leaderboard. While I speak, I sit at comfortable 5,430~ MMR with a peak at 5,550.
Why did I want to get to 6k MMR at the first place? I had hope for better pubs, I mean, I really had. Higher skill level, advanced tactical behavior - Just better games in general. That applies to some of the games, but in general there is a big problem that ruins many of the top tier games with average MMR of 5,5-5,9k.
The Smurfs Lets talk about the problem which destroys most of the high level games by default: Smurf Accounts. I really do not know if people played the accounts themselves or just bought 'em on ebay. But there is one thing that share most of 'em: They play really bad. If we assume that a high level game consists of 9 people who deserve to be there and 1 smurf, you already know which team is mostly gonna lose.
The worse Problem: TBD-Accounts You think smurfs are bad? Well, you have no idea. The worst of the worst are TBD-People aka "to be determined". These people still have to play calibration matches to determine their initial rating. Is that not wonderful? They are in 5,5k-6k~ average MMR games claiming mid every single time. Let us take a look what these people mostly gonna do: They will instant pick Zeus, move to middle, get their level 6 and after that they will spam their Ultimate off-cooldown until the game ends. Nice. And why do they do that? Dota 2 MMR calibration heavily depends on certain values. One of them is the Hero-Damage during a game. Zeus allows to get stellar values without being very good at the game.
Actual Games: After I talked about the bad stuff, I will give you some proof that these problems are more than real and must be fixed in some way.
TBD Razor (5,5k avrg. MMR game) TBD PA/TA and Smurf Furion TBD Troll
These games have been recorded during my session yesterday.
The sad Part If I would do some statistics how many legit loses happened and how many Smurfs and TBD people caused loses it would be probably 60/40 ratio. That is really really sad in my opinion. Not because I lose games, but more because every high MMR player encounters these problems and nothing is done.
Possible Solutions: In my opinion there is a good way to address this problem. Limit the initial Calibration value to 5000. Not more, not less. Good players will not have any trouble pushing further while abusers will not get further. This would also help to shut down the Black-Market where accounts with 6-6,5k MMR are traded for high amounts of money.
That is it from my side,
Happy Pubbing
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown?
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ah that explains all the people who pick zeus. i thought it was something that came along with the patch and the buff to bloodseeker.
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On October 02 2014 23:09 ahswtini wrote: So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown?
Yes.
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On October 02 2014 23:20 Ler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 23:09 ahswtini wrote: So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown? Yes. OH YES IMA SMURF MY WAY TO 6K WITH THIS...and then get stomped every single game. Why do people even do that...
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
On October 03 2014 00:04 OceanLab wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 23:20 Ler wrote:On October 02 2014 23:09 ahswtini wrote: So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown? Yes. OH YES IMA SMURF MY WAY TO 6K WITH THIS...and then get stomped every single game. Why do people even do that... Well for people who see it as a status symbol, they can just calibrate there and then never play ranked again
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So I guess I should do my placement matches now huh?
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Well d***, I didn't know that. That's why I got ranked so low initially! I was playing supports!
It also explains why 1k mmr players are so much better at teamwork than the 2k players...
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I just carried a TBD Zeus mid doing exactly what you mentionned, I hope he won a lot of MMR from this match so I don't have him again on my side.
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and i thought those zeus players are just stupid as fuck
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How can you distinguish smurfs from appropriately rated players who are having a bad game? Aditionally I'm surprised that you encounter them so much, based on my experiences I would estimate my ratio to be 90/10, but then again I don't really pay too much attention to this type of thing.
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I don't know how Dota2 can be such a great game and have such tight balancing and then some idiot is put in-charge of the MMR system and thinks "MORE DAMAGE TO HEROS MEANS MORE SKILL HER DUR" like what about supports? What about the offlaner that carefully farms his blink and then does the perfect initiation stun to win the game for his team? Do they get shit on simply because they didnt do 2k+ total damage to enemy heros in a game?
I've already made 1 smurf account that I wanted to take Dota2 a little more serious on, no abandons, no raging, picking what role my team needed rather then what I wanted to play and in the end I saw my MMR rise a tad above my main account. But now that I see this "pick zeus for 5k mmr" trend that is actually real, I honestly just have to smh at Dota2 and quite frankly care a lot less about the game then I did before. I think what I need to do is just make a 5 man team and forget about MMR in general and play nothing but captains mode.
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On October 03 2014 03:05 BongChambers wrote: I don't know how Dota2 can be such a great game and have such tight balancing and then some idiot is put in-charge of the MMR system and thinks "MORE DAMAGE TO HEROS MEANS MORE SKILL HER DUR" like what about supports? What about the offlaner that carefully farms his blink and then does the perfect initiation stun to win the game for his team? Do they get shit on simply because they didnt do 2k+ total damage to enemy heros in a game?
I've already made 1 smurf account that I wanted to take Dota2 a little more serious on, no abandons, no raging, picking what role my team needed rather then what I wanted to play and in the end I saw my MMR rise a tad above my main account. But now that I see this "pick zeus for 5k mmr" trend that is actually real, I honestly just have to smh at Dota2 and quite frankly care a lot less about the game then I did before. I think what I need to do is just make a 5 man team and forget about MMR in general and play nothing but captains mode.
I think it's just under-developed. The system for CS:GO is slightly more robust.
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Interesting. I guess if Valve knows about this it's just a matter of time before they have some coefficient which adjusts hero damage based on which hero you're playing? I.e. if you have high hero damage and you're playing Zeus, it doesn't mean you're better than your "true" rating, it just means you're playing Zeus and you're expected to have high hero damage.
Do we know for sure this is a thing?
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I personally think the Zeus players gaining mmr is based on playing a strong hero more than hero dmg. The hero itself has a very good win rate, so playing it will mean gaining mmr over your normal level (not too high though).
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On October 03 2014 03:23 Beirut wrote: Interesting. I guess if Valve knows about this it's just a matter of time before they have some coefficient which adjusts hero damage based on which hero you're playing? I.e. if you have high hero damage and you're playing Zeus, it doesn't mean you're better than your "true" rating, it just means you're playing Zeus and you're expected to have high hero damage.
Do we know for sure this is a thing?
I mean, even then, a zeus spamming ult on CD is probably going to do more damage than the average non-retarded zeus.
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On October 03 2014 04:05 Yurie wrote: I personally think the Zeus players gaining mmr is based on playing a strong hero more than hero dmg. The hero itself has a very good win rate, so playing it will mean gaining mmr over your normal level (not too high though). No, it's a pretty well known issue at this point and it is affecting a lot of top players. Issue just hit Reddit front page today (or last night). A lot of what I read there matches up with what Ler posted here so it seems to be a real thing.
Funny thing is that I am pretty sure that there are other factors that are considered when trying to detect a smurf so even after they fix this you almost just have to wonder what will come up next.
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didn't realize ler is a blue poster
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I tried to tell people, don't pay too much attention too MMR, in it's current state it has limitations as a determination of skill. It is what it is. It's just a system of calibrating, then winning enough games from there to get your goal mmr (4k/5k/6k/etc). There are smurfs, mmr abusers, draft abusers, hero abusers...all sorts, doesn't mean high MMR's are meaningless, just means that you're gonna have bad players all over.
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Ranked games are shit all crybabies and abusers. I went back to RD and AR because it took the fun out of the game.
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This Zeus thing has been going on for a long time, didn't realize this many people didn't know about it
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considering the hero dmg is what helps calibrate mmr, wouldn't rushing aghs on natures prophet be the same concept?
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NP Ulti only hits people if you have vision, and it doesn't do as much damage most of the time
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ive played with OP
ur just as bad as TBD zeus spammers, look at your recent games where you deal like 2k hero dmg in 1 hour long games and the choice of ur items make u look like a fucking moron
i bet if i ask 4 random friends from my friend list and link ur steam they'd be like "yeah i dodge this guy lolz" however u do make a great point, acc buyers, BOOSTED PLAYERS such as yourself and zeus/spectre tbd spammers should get fucking banned
User was warned for this post
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Wish I'd get to recalibrate my main account instead of getting a smurf and then playing zeus.
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On October 03 2014 10:34 wavebave wrote: ive played with OP
ur just as bad as TBD zeus spammers, look at your recent games where you deal like 2k hero dmg in 1 hour long games and the choice of ur items make u look like a fucking moron
i bet if i ask 4 random friends from my friend list and link ur steam they'd be like "yeah i dodge this guy lolz" however u do make a great point, acc buyers, BOOSTED PLAYERS such as yourself and zeus/spectre tbd spammers should get fucking banned lol
hey op you wanna respond to this?
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I've just got my calibration on little above 5.1k playing all games with centaur. Won 9 out of 10 but I hoped for higher mmr, wonder if I could get higher if I would play zeus 10 times and win probably like 5 games only?
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On October 03 2014 10:34 wavebave wrote: ive played with OP
ur just as bad as TBD zeus spammers, look at your recent games where you deal like 2k hero dmg in 1 hour long games and the choice of ur items make u look like a fucking moron
i bet if i ask 4 random friends from my friend list and link ur steam they'd be like "yeah i dodge this guy lolz" however u do make a great point, acc buyers, BOOSTED PLAYERS such as yourself and zeus/spectre tbd spammers should get fucking banned
I've also played with him and imo it's ok. Maybe 200-300 rating too high. Item choices are questionable in some of his games, thats true.
I think you're just mad because you lost again with a Zeus on your team. Also, I know you're smurfing a lot yourself, so just stfu you fucking autist. Cancer kid coming here and flaming people that make a valid point.
User was warned for this post
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On October 03 2014 12:40 Honsker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 10:34 wavebave wrote: ive played with OP
ur just as bad as TBD zeus spammers, look at your recent games where you deal like 2k hero dmg in 1 hour long games and the choice of ur items make u look like a fucking moron
i bet if i ask 4 random friends from my friend list and link ur steam they'd be like "yeah i dodge this guy lolz" however u do make a great point, acc buyers, BOOSTED PLAYERS such as yourself and zeus/spectre tbd spammers should get fucking banned I've also played with him and imo it's ok. Maybe 200-300 rating too high. Item choices are questionable in some of his games, thats true. I think you're just mad because you lost again with a Zeus on your team. Also, I know you're smurfing a lot yourself, so just stfu you fucking autist. Cancer kid coming here and flaming people that make a valid point. Ohh shit you're not just going to take this are you wavebave?
User was warned for this post
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If higher hero damage means higher MMR, then I'm not really following the logic of OP's lower hero damage = BOOSTED PLAYER such as himself. But generally that discussion seems best left to the frustrated prepubescents.
Interesting to know that that's how smurf detection works, though. I've wondered how a smurf of mine got bumped to very high even though the winrate on the account was atrocious.
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On October 03 2014 12:40 Honsker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 10:34 wavebave wrote: ive played with OP
ur just as bad as TBD zeus spammers, look at your recent games where you deal like 2k hero dmg in 1 hour long games and the choice of ur items make u look like a fucking moron
i bet if i ask 4 random friends from my friend list and link ur steam they'd be like "yeah i dodge this guy lolz" however u do make a great point, acc buyers, BOOSTED PLAYERS such as yourself and zeus/spectre tbd spammers should get fucking banned I've also played with him and imo it's ok. Maybe 200-300 rating too high. Item choices are questionable in some of his games, thats true. I think you're just mad because you lost again with a Zeus on your team. Also, I know you're smurfing a lot yourself, so just stfu you fucking autist. Cancer kid coming here and flaming people that make a valid point.
i have 3 accs that i play occasionally on, why do i get warned but this is acceptable? theres nothing valid about OP when he is playing worse than TBD zeus spammers in every game.
so cute and adorable how you try to defend OP (Crystal Maiden) in this match http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/934110548. let me guess, he choose to play CM and troll around for 1 hour because razor was TBD? much amaze
On October 03 2014 12:51 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 12:40 Honsker wrote:On October 03 2014 10:34 wavebave wrote: ive played with OP
ur just as bad as TBD zeus spammers, look at your recent games where you deal like 2k hero dmg in 1 hour long games and the choice of ur items make u look like a fucking moron
i bet if i ask 4 random friends from my friend list and link ur steam they'd be like "yeah i dodge this guy lolz" however u do make a great point, acc buyers, BOOSTED PLAYERS such as yourself and zeus/spectre tbd spammers should get fucking banned I've also played with him and imo it's ok. Maybe 200-300 rating too high. Item choices are questionable in some of his games, thats true. I think you're just mad because you lost again with a Zeus on your team. Also, I know you're smurfing a lot yourself, so just stfu you fucking autist. Cancer kid coming here and flaming people that make a valid point. Ohh shit you're not just going to take this are you wavebave? User was warned for this post i just made this acc to flame OP cuz hes worse than TBD pi ckers, idk why im getting warned for saying this?
anyways im glad something is being done about zeus tbd spammers, i made a reddit thread 6 days ago and it got downvoted instantly and i got banned on dev.dota2 for spam because of this http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=147064
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Lalalaland34457 Posts
On October 03 2014 14:48 wavebave wrote: i just made this acc to flame OP cuz hes worse than TBD pi ckers, idk why im getting warned for saying this? You're getting warned for this part exactly. This thread is for addressing the OP's points. If you think you have seen the OP abusing something then you can state so (ideally with evidence) but attacking things like his item choices and calling him a fucking moron is unnecessary.
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wut? hes abusing what? i said he is playing bad and i linked his dotabuff.
what more proof do you want besides a dotabuff link + proper explanation of why he is worse than TBD players + even sephiroth is stating the truth lolz
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28057 Posts
On October 03 2014 15:29 wavebave wrote: wut? hes abusing what? i said he is playing bad and i linked his dotabuff.
what more proof do you want besides a dotabuff link + proper explanation of why he is worse than TBD players + even sephiroth is stating the truth lolz
I don't think you are getting the point. He said it is fine to state your opinion and link the dotabuff and say he is worse than TBD players, just not in the manner that you did it. We have strict rules across the TL network (TL/LD/LH/LP), and calling someone names and attacking them in an argument is against one of those rules.
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On October 03 2014 02:41 Alur wrote: How can you distinguish smurfs from appropriately rated players who are having a bad game? Aditionally I'm surprised that you encounter them so much, based on my experiences I would estimate my ratio to be 90/10, but then again I don't really pay too much attention to this type of thing.
I agree. I don't immediately assume someone is smurfing just because one of the teams got trashed.
OP seems like an exaggeration. Even so, they patched it today.
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no, i saw a tbd zeus in my game after the patch just 2 hours ago
since ive played with and against OP many times, hes under the dunner kruger impression that everyone is bad and he is the best. trust me hes the type of player to call it gg if the enemy gets fb lolz
whatever imdone posting here, hope you change after this OP ktxbai
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
On October 03 2014 16:47 wavebave wrote: no, i saw a tbd zeus in my game after the patch just 2 hours ago
Right, because the patch stops TBD players from picking zeus
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While I also noticed an increase in TBDs and Zeuses last few days in 5k+ mmr, honestly most of the times I cant see a difference between them and others. Im pretty sure mid TBD Zeus has had >50% win ratio in my games at least.
And why exactly is OPs skill/mmr in being discussed here? He could be an account buyer + mmr cheater + whatever else for all I care, the TBD/Zeus/Smurf/etc issue/discussion is just as real anyway. Delete those posts really, not because they tone they're written in but because they're completely off topic. Make your own blog if you wanna discuss player X's mmr.
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They match you against people with similar amount of games, atleast to an extent. I got two accounts. both at 5.3-5.5k. The games on the smurf (100ish games total) are of a substantually lower quality than the old account's.
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I wrote something and delete them later on because they are not that good.
All in all, non-CM dota will never be "good" or "fun" for non-troll players in long term. All brackets have ruiners and most have players that are not deserved to be there. I believe we all see those players all the time. You can differentiate having a bad day from being actually significantly worse than the others. It appears in troll/smurf/etc.. forms. There is no option rather than CM to play actual dota.
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I'd go as far as to wager that this whole ordeal with pushing players with an average score (however it is calculated, that's beside the point) being much higher than the average score of other players in their current 'bracket' (however it is defined) just to avoid newcomers being stomped in their first match and leaving the game discouraged has been pushed to an extreme. We'll see how it will go. I doubt any major changes will occur at this point, but if they actually shifted their ranking criteria from cs to hero damage (which I personally can hardly believe, but I haven't been around lately), then it means the system is still in the works and you can have your hopes.
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On October 03 2014 19:09 makmeatt wrote: I'd go as far as to wager that this whole ordeal with pushing players with an average score (however it is calculated, that's beside the point) being much higher than the average score of other players in their current 'bracket' (however it is defined) just to avoid newcomers being stomped in their first match and leaving the game discouraged has been pushed to an extreme. We'll see how it will go. I doubt any major changes will occur at this point, but if they actually shifted their ranking criteria from cs to hero damage (which I personally can hardly believe, but I haven't been around lately), then it means the system is still in the works and you can have your hopes. im pretty sure the hero damage thing got patched today. tbh zeus is a good hero and i dont mind people picking him BUT if you play matches in the 4-5k bracket you encounter alot of people that instalock zeus and their ranks are usually TBD. additionally they use wrath of god everytime its not on cd
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This points to a bigger issue about mmr. Rating change should be based on exactly one ingame factor.
Whether you won or lost.
That's IT. No other ingame factors should apply. Not hero damage, not k/d, not wards purchased, not game length, nothing else. The only goal of DotA is to win the game. Including all this extraneous crap punishes support players, promotes stat padding and generally fucks with the integrity of the rating system and the quality of games when people try to exploit it.
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Well,
this guy has lower solo MMR than I got. Additionally he also loses heavily when we are going to compare the competitive history. He also got denied by an IXDL Admin (Hektor) who wrote this about Sephiroth:
I remember you from a matchmaking game where you ruined our lanes by picking last then refusing to go woods with quite good wood hero (naix) and then spaming quite a lot during that game. I think you are really unmannered guy and that you wont be a fit in this league. This time i will be forced to deny you, next time if you reapply i wish to see 3 supports from decent vouched players.
Source: ixdl.net
People playing in IXDL even made a topic and complain about his attention problems when it comes to casting games so he also got kicked as a caster (didnt even know such things are possible):
Imo not only is this guy a horrible player who thinks too well of himself, he's also a horrible caster. Honestly, his commentary isn't even that good, and I don't really see why he's allowed to cast these games. It just brings kinda like a bad influence over the league when the casters are assholes(not being good is understandable, but there's a difference between being a poor caster and a moron).
<8:29:14 PM> sephirothvg has been unvouched by HEKTOR. Source: ixdl.net
I think enough has been said.
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Man i dont care about sephiroth, i dont like him myself
i just think you as a player should get a better attitude and stop pulling the gg card after FB or whatever. much respect to you if you manage to improve mentality wise,
edit: ive now met 3 TBD zeus spammers since the patch, i guess they made it so you cant calibrate past 5k when they could've just made zeus not pickable by TBD players altogether.
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Lalalaland34457 Posts
I don't think making a hero unpickable is a viable solution for this.
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Is this issue still fixed or?
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how isnt it a viable solution? a 3k mmr player spamming zeus ulti whenever its off cd gives them 5k straight away if valve decided to look through statistics of how many tbd players actually picked zeus it'd probably be the most picked hero with a rate of 80% among tbds
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On October 03 2014 21:55 wavebave wrote: how isnt it a viable solution? a 3k mmr player spamming zeus ulti whenever its off cd gives them 5k straight away if valve decided to look through statistics of how many tbd players actually picked zeus it'd probably be the most picked hero with a rate of 80% among tbds
because you're removing choice from players. It's something you need to uphold and removing Zeus will choose have TBD abusers switch to another hero that is a near second.
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Why is Valve not fixing this problem??????
It's getting obnoxious.
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
On October 03 2014 21:55 wavebave wrote: how isnt it a viable solution? a 3k mmr player spamming zeus ulti whenever its off cd gives them 5k straight away if valve decided to look through statistics of how many tbd players actually picked zeus it'd probably be the most picked hero with a rate of 80% among tbds Because it's a bandaid solution for a problem with the calibration system. When problem A causes symptom B, your aim should be to fix A, not B.
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You are not using the word smurf correctly at all... Smurfing = hiding identity, not being bad.
Anyway, I don't think it's nearly as big of an issue as you make it out to be, but lower initial calibration would be a good change.
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On October 03 2014 23:17 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 21:55 wavebave wrote: how isnt it a viable solution? a 3k mmr player spamming zeus ulti whenever its off cd gives them 5k straight away if valve decided to look through statistics of how many tbd players actually picked zeus it'd probably be the most picked hero with a rate of 80% among tbds because you're removing choice from players. It's something you need to uphold and removing Zeus will choose have TBD abusers switch to another hero that is a near second.
lmfao ok
give me another hero that doesn't require skills but can get to at least one third of zeus' average hero dmg at the end of a match
fucking god this forum is like playdota's dota chat section except ppl try to be serious here lolz
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Not letting people play Zeus, like Torte de Lini suggested will simply make people play other heroes.
It would be much wiser to address the root of the problem, and put less of a weighting on player damage on calibration matches. We don't have the exact formula for how calibration matches work, so it's quite difficult for us to offer recommendations to the system.
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>give me another hero that doesn't require skills but can get to at least one third of zeus' average hero dmg at the end of a match
just admit it, ur a zeus tbd spammer since u cant answer this, no need to run away from the truth brah
User was warned for this post
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Or, you know, Valve could either change the way calibration works, or change how HD affects whatever the formula is for MMR.
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
On October 04 2014 00:24 wavebave wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 23:17 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 03 2014 21:55 wavebave wrote: how isnt it a viable solution? a 3k mmr player spamming zeus ulti whenever its off cd gives them 5k straight away if valve decided to look through statistics of how many tbd players actually picked zeus it'd probably be the most picked hero with a rate of 80% among tbds because you're removing choice from players. It's something you need to uphold and removing Zeus will choose have TBD abusers switch to another hero that is a near second. lmfao ok give me another hero that doesn't require skills but can get to at least one third of zeus' average hero dmg at the end of a match fucking god this forum is like playdota's dota chat section except ppl try to be serious here lolz Except you're the one who's brainless. The problem here is that getting high hero damage inflates your calibration rating. Not that zeus is the easiest hero to get a high hero damage with. Your solution is to attack the symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. Worse still you do it with a nuke and not with a precision strike. That's great, you still haven't fixed the root of the problem so the abusers will just move onto the next best hero for the job.
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
You're like 10 posts in and half of your posts have been flamebait or outright flaming. Who the fuck are you?
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The thing is, even if they fix the damage factor into calibration (if that is even true), you still have more account sellers due to reduced game requirements.
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this place is amazing, its like "reddits community" but without downvotes and the moderation here is worse than playdota cuz u get "warned" for high quality posting.
On October 04 2014 00:42 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2014 00:24 wavebave wrote:On October 03 2014 23:17 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 03 2014 21:55 wavebave wrote: how isnt it a viable solution? a 3k mmr player spamming zeus ulti whenever its off cd gives them 5k straight away if valve decided to look through statistics of how many tbd players actually picked zeus it'd probably be the most picked hero with a rate of 80% among tbds because you're removing choice from players. It's something you need to uphold and removing Zeus will choose have TBD abusers switch to another hero that is a near second. lmfao ok give me another hero that doesn't require skills but can get to at least one third of zeus' average hero dmg at the end of a match fucking god this forum is like playdota's dota chat section except ppl try to be serious here lolz Except you're the one who's brainless. The problem here is that getting high hero damage inflates your calibration rating. Not that zeus is the easiest hero to get a high hero damage with. Your solution is to attack the symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. Worse still you do it with a nuke and not with a precision strike. That's great, you still haven't fixed the root of the problem so the abusers will just move onto the next best hero for the job. ur like 5k posts in and ur most likely a tbd zeus player by the way u "argue". im asking u to show me a hero that can be played by 3ks and 4ks while still reaching 5k+ that can give at least ONE THIRD of zeus total hero dmg of an average match and u cant,
do u have to be a scientist to understand people pick zeus to inflate their rating by additional 1k+ points because its the easiest hero in regards to hero damage? HOLY FUCK you are a fucking troll
fuck it im done but these high quality bait posts just suck me right in ive betrayed u playdota
User was banned for this post.
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I don't know if there's an easy solution to this.
Suppose I'm a 6k player and I start a new account. Valve has no idea what my actual MMR might be so the reasonable thing to do would be guess that I'm average (~2.5k?) and work from there. If we ONLY use win/lose as the metric for calibration as some people suggest, by the time I'm done with the 40 unranked games, I'll only be at 3.5k even if I win all of them. After winning my 10 calibration matches, I'll get placed at 3.75k. In order to get up to 5k,I have to play through at least 100 games. This would suck for me and it would suck for my opponents since they're facing a 6k player and basically have no chance of winning.
Valve obviously thought that they need some metric to determine how I'm performing relative to everyone else in my games so they could bump my MMR up faster than 25 per game. Maybe they chose a formula like this:
(K + A - D)/(K_avg + A_avg - D_avg) + 0.5 * HD/HD_avg + 0.5 * HH/HH_avg + 0.3 * TD/TD_avg...
Just pulled random numbers out of my ass but guess which part of that formula is easiest to abuse. People are saying that Valve needs to address the root of the problem, which is that HD weights heavily into calibration. However, I think doing so will do more harm than good as stated above. It might be better just to do band-aid fixes that address specific abuses, like making Zeus ult and other globals not count towards HD or something.
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On October 04 2014 04:14 B1nary wrote: I don't know if there's an easy solution to this.
Suppose I'm a 6k player and I start a new account. Valve has no idea what my actual MMR might be so the reasonable thing to do would be guess that I'm average (~2.5k?) and work from there. If we ONLY use win/lose as the metric for calibration as some people suggest, by the time I'm done with the 40 unranked games, I'll only be at 3.5k even if I win all of them. After winning my 10 calibration matches, I'll get placed at 3.75k. In order to get up to 5k,I have to play through at least 100 games. This would suck for me and it would suck for my opponents since they're facing a 6k player and basically have no chance of winning.
Valve obviously thought that they need some metric to determine how I'm performing relative to everyone else in my games so they could bump my MMR up faster than 25 per game. Maybe they chose a formula like this:
(K + A - D)/(K_avg + A_avg - D_avg) + 0.5 * HD/HD_avg + 0.5 * HH/HH_avg + 0.3 * TD/TD_avg...
Just pulled random numbers out of my ass but guess which part of that formula is easiest to abuse. People are saying that Valve needs to address the root of the problem, which is that HD weights heavily into calibration. However, I think doing so will do more harm than good as stated above. It might be better just to do band-aid fixes that address specific abuses, like making Zeus ult and other globals not count towards HD or something.
If you're a 6k player, why would you start a new account
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28057 Posts
On October 04 2014 05:18 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2014 04:14 B1nary wrote: I don't know if there's an easy solution to this.
Suppose I'm a 6k player and I start a new account. Valve has no idea what my actual MMR might be so the reasonable thing to do would be guess that I'm average (~2.5k?) and work from there. If we ONLY use win/lose as the metric for calibration as some people suggest, by the time I'm done with the 40 unranked games, I'll only be at 3.5k even if I win all of them. After winning my 10 calibration matches, I'll get placed at 3.75k. In order to get up to 5k,I have to play through at least 100 games. This would suck for me and it would suck for my opponents since they're facing a 6k player and basically have no chance of winning.
Valve obviously thought that they need some metric to determine how I'm performing relative to everyone else in my games so they could bump my MMR up faster than 25 per game. Maybe they chose a formula like this:
(K + A - D)/(K_avg + A_avg - D_avg) + 0.5 * HD/HD_avg + 0.5 * HH/HH_avg + 0.3 * TD/TD_avg...
Just pulled random numbers out of my ass but guess which part of that formula is easiest to abuse. People are saying that Valve needs to address the root of the problem, which is that HD weights heavily into calibration. However, I think doing so will do more harm than good as stated above. It might be better just to do band-aid fixes that address specific abuses, like making Zeus ult and other globals not count towards HD or something. If you're a 6k player, why would you start a new account Maybe you want to play some more ranked dota without the possibility of losing your 6k
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Or you're just Emulator and you're going for highest number of smurf accounts that one person can possibly have.
Honestly I don't even know, is there an original Emulator anymore? Is Emu even real?
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
Emu is like voldemort, shattered into multiple pieces
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On October 04 2014 05:45 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2014 05:18 evanthebouncy! wrote:On October 04 2014 04:14 B1nary wrote: I don't know if there's an easy solution to this.
Suppose I'm a 6k player and I start a new account. Valve has no idea what my actual MMR might be so the reasonable thing to do would be guess that I'm average (~2.5k?) and work from there. If we ONLY use win/lose as the metric for calibration as some people suggest, by the time I'm done with the 40 unranked games, I'll only be at 3.5k even if I win all of them. After winning my 10 calibration matches, I'll get placed at 3.75k. In order to get up to 5k,I have to play through at least 100 games. This would suck for me and it would suck for my opponents since they're facing a 6k player and basically have no chance of winning.
Valve obviously thought that they need some metric to determine how I'm performing relative to everyone else in my games so they could bump my MMR up faster than 25 per game. Maybe they chose a formula like this:
(K + A - D)/(K_avg + A_avg - D_avg) + 0.5 * HD/HD_avg + 0.5 * HH/HH_avg + 0.3 * TD/TD_avg...
Just pulled random numbers out of my ass but guess which part of that formula is easiest to abuse. People are saying that Valve needs to address the root of the problem, which is that HD weights heavily into calibration. However, I think doing so will do more harm than good as stated above. It might be better just to do band-aid fixes that address specific abuses, like making Zeus ult and other globals not count towards HD or something. If you're a 6k player, why would you start a new account Maybe you want to play some more ranked dota without the possibility of losing your 6k Because you zues abused
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On October 04 2014 06:25 ahswtini wrote: Emu is like voldemort, shattered into multiple pieces But isnt Voldemort powerful?
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that is ridiculous, but im not surprised. I too, started a 2nd account (im almost exclusive support) and despite a 60% winrate, it put me at 3800. I had no idea how that was possible, even lower than my main. Now I understand why, even though I definitely had the biggest impact in most games with my support play, I never dealt the most damage. Oh well, least I got to play with Tobi a good 10 times or so because of it.
I managed to take my main from 3900 to 4800 within a few months lately when I got more serious, but since 6.82 where carries basically autofarm from the return gold, I dropped down to 4500. I'm taking an extended break from dota because its just a bullshit system, and unless you pick mid everygame, your ability to climb is hindered greatly. I did my best and somehow climbed 1000 pts almost to 5k with support, but this patch ruins that even more and you basically need to pick a support with lategame semi-carry capabilities (Mirana, Alch, Sven, etc) if you want to win in this patch.
And as far as those people doing the "get out of 3k MMR hell to 6k challenge" leveling up a low level account, I have yet to see anyone accomplish that without playing mid DP/ember/razor type heroes everygame. Its obviously not impossible, as I've almost done it up to 5k, but its WAY WAY WAY harder and would take much more than the 100 games it takes if you spam DP mid.
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On October 04 2014 02:00 wavebave wrote:this place is amazing, its like "reddits community" but without downvotes and the moderation here is worse than playdota cuz u get "warned" for high quality posting. Show nested quote +On October 04 2014 00:42 ahswtini wrote:On October 04 2014 00:24 wavebave wrote:On October 03 2014 23:17 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 03 2014 21:55 wavebave wrote: how isnt it a viable solution? a 3k mmr player spamming zeus ulti whenever its off cd gives them 5k straight away if valve decided to look through statistics of how many tbd players actually picked zeus it'd probably be the most picked hero with a rate of 80% among tbds because you're removing choice from players. It's something you need to uphold and removing Zeus will choose have TBD abusers switch to another hero that is a near second. lmfao ok give me another hero that doesn't require skills but can get to at least one third of zeus' average hero dmg at the end of a match fucking god this forum is like playdota's dota chat section except ppl try to be serious here lolz Except you're the one who's brainless. The problem here is that getting high hero damage inflates your calibration rating. Not that zeus is the easiest hero to get a high hero damage with. Your solution is to attack the symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. Worse still you do it with a nuke and not with a precision strike. That's great, you still haven't fixed the root of the problem so the abusers will just move onto the next best hero for the job. ur like 5k posts in and ur most likely a tbd zeus player by the way u "argue". im asking u to show me a hero that can be played by 3ks and 4ks while still reaching 5k+ that can give at least ONE THIRD of zeus total hero dmg of an average match and u cant, do u have to be a scientist to understand people pick zeus to inflate their rating by additional 1k+ points because its the easiest hero in regards to hero damage? HOLY FUCK you are a fucking troll fuck it im done but these high quality bait posts just suck me right in ive betrayed u playdota User was banned for this post. That took way longer than it should have.
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United States12181 Posts
I'm sure Valve has metrics to back up their smurf detection system, and it seemed to work pretty well because a lot of players said that the placement/calibration accuracy was very good. However, the heroes in Dota are so varied in role and impact potential that calibration can't simply rely on a single factor to blanket them all.
If I were to guess, I would say that they probably parsed out average performance on a per-hero basis (and I'm using "performance" in the most nebulous sense, it could be just hero damage alone) and broke down those averages across various skill rating ranges. For example, we know that Zeus has a lot of hero damage potential because of his ability set. If in fact they were looking only at hero damage separately per hero, then they would know based on internal data that 3k-rated players do an average of 20k hero damage as Zeus in a 30-35min game, while 5k players do an average of 50k hero damage under the same conditions. By isolating variables, they can more directly compare data sets for the most accurate readings. That is, comparing total hero damage as Zeus from a 15 minute 3k game with a Crystal Maiden from a 75 minute 5k game wouldn't make sense because it's apples to oranges: the heroes are different, the game durations are different. How many matches have been registered so far? Tens of millions? Hundreds of millions? They have access to this level of detail.
So, let's go back to the example I listed before. On average, let's say a 5k Zeus in a 30-35 min game does 50k hero damage, while you under the same game conditions did 60k even though you just spammed your ult on cooldown. You must be better than 5k according to the governing metric. That could be okay in the short term, but what happens when there are so many other 60k-damage Zeuses doing this that the expected hero damage for a particular rating gets raised? What happens when the next hero trend emerges, like old-style Deso/Manta Venge (avg hero damage at 5k MMR is 10k and I got 40k, I'm 6k rating!)? There's probably more that goes into it than a single factor like hero damage alone, but people are always going to try to exploit for easy and fast rating if they know the conditions, and it's up to Valve to keep those metrics evolving and well-guarded.
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I'm sorry for you, OP, but it seems like the only reason you are noticing this is because most people who are at 5k+ MMR are more or less properly ranked and you're noticing the ones that don't. In lower MMRs, even up close to 4k, there are still often raidcal differences in the skills of the players. There are more TBDs, there are more people who have ridden lucky streaks and more people who have exploited a single nuance in the game to rise above their general skill level.
Let's be honest, if there was a 3k player complaining that there was always one awful player in his games that decided which team won or lost, you would tell him that he should just play better and carry that guy and that his overall record would be his true skill. So....what should I tell you?
And as far as those people doing the "get out of 3k MMR hell to 6k challenge" leveling up a low level account, I have yet to see anyone accomplish that without playing mid DP/ember/razor type heroes everygame. Its obviously not impossible, as I've almost done it up to 5k, but its WAY WAY WAY harder and would take much more than the 100 games it takes if you spam DP mid.
It would be nice if some one did this with the idea of showing lower ranked players what things to work on or how to improve, but it seems that they just do it to say "lol 4k players so stupid, 3k players are mental deficients and 2k players are amoebas lol!"
It's not useful to show a 2800 player how a 5k player beats 3kers. He needs to know how to play like a 3k player.
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On October 05 2014 02:41 Jerubaal wrote:
Let's be honest, if there was a 3k player complaining that there was always one awful player in his games that decided which team won or lost, you would tell him that he should just play better and carry that guy and that his overall record would be his true skill. So....what should I tell you?
Man, it's so sweet to see that turned around on someone. :D
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On October 05 2014 02:10 Yergidy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2014 02:00 wavebave wrote:this place is amazing, its like "reddits community" but without downvotes and the moderation here is worse than playdota cuz u get "warned" for high quality posting. On October 04 2014 00:42 ahswtini wrote:On October 04 2014 00:24 wavebave wrote:On October 03 2014 23:17 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 03 2014 21:55 wavebave wrote: how isnt it a viable solution? a 3k mmr player spamming zeus ulti whenever its off cd gives them 5k straight away if valve decided to look through statistics of how many tbd players actually picked zeus it'd probably be the most picked hero with a rate of 80% among tbds because you're removing choice from players. It's something you need to uphold and removing Zeus will choose have TBD abusers switch to another hero that is a near second. lmfao ok give me another hero that doesn't require skills but can get to at least one third of zeus' average hero dmg at the end of a match fucking god this forum is like playdota's dota chat section except ppl try to be serious here lolz Except you're the one who's brainless. The problem here is that getting high hero damage inflates your calibration rating. Not that zeus is the easiest hero to get a high hero damage with. Your solution is to attack the symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. Worse still you do it with a nuke and not with a precision strike. That's great, you still haven't fixed the root of the problem so the abusers will just move onto the next best hero for the job. ur like 5k posts in and ur most likely a tbd zeus player by the way u "argue". im asking u to show me a hero that can be played by 3ks and 4ks while still reaching 5k+ that can give at least ONE THIRD of zeus total hero dmg of an average match and u cant, do u have to be a scientist to understand people pick zeus to inflate their rating by additional 1k+ points because its the easiest hero in regards to hero damage? HOLY FUCK you are a fucking troll fuck it im done but these high quality bait posts just suck me right in ive betrayed u playdota User was banned for this post. That took way longer than it should have. Not gonna lie, I was expecting the hammer to drop around the time he said "i just made this acc to flame OP" (sic).
Sorta glad it didn't though, this thread is gold.
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Writing this blog was a big mistake, the number of abusers increased a lot since it appeared. It leads to some stupid 5o4... I understand it's a real problem for many players but it should have been posted on dev forums, not on a big traffic site.
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On October 07 2014 19:16 nojok wrote: Writing this blog was a big mistake, the number of abusers increased a lot since it appeared. It leads to some stupid 5o4... I understand it's a real problem for many players but it should have been posted on dev forums, not on a big traffic site. You think the rise of tbd zeus is due to this blog in particular? This info is everywhere...
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the only way u can rise is when u can actually 1v5 in ur current mmr despite having lots of feeders and retards in ur team. otherwise ure not good enough to rise, if you are depending on anyone but urself to win a game then ure thinking about it the wrong way. also everyone gets tbd players just as much as you do, so dont act like they are the ones that are stopping you from rising
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Sanya12364 Posts
Pretty much, rising when you are below real MMR is hard unless you can Pub Star as the carry or the mid.
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On October 02 2014 23:20 Ler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 23:09 ahswtini wrote: So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown? Yes. Wait is this still the case? O_O holy shit??
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28057 Posts
On October 18 2014 15:27 Aerisky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 23:20 Ler wrote:On October 02 2014 23:09 ahswtini wrote: So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown? Yes. Wait is this still the case? O_O holy shit?? Not recently. The other week it was patched.
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On October 18 2014 15:33 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 15:27 Aerisky wrote:On October 02 2014 23:20 Ler wrote:On October 02 2014 23:09 ahswtini wrote: So do you get calibrated high even if you lose most of those games where you just zeus ult everytime it's off cooldown? Yes. Wait is this still the case? O_O holy shit?? Not recently. The other week it was patched. Ohh cool.
But fuck I hate matchmaking so much, I always have to solo queue
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