|
I was very surprised when the prize distribution Valve announced for TI4 was met with approval by most "dota personalities". I see three major problems with the distribution:
1. The first place prize is extremely large compared to 2nd... You'll basically have a team that is marginally better than the 2nd team get three times as much prize money - this is, simply put, dumb. Even ppd said in the interview with Cyborgmatt that the first place prize is too large. For some reason, as far as I can remember, Godz and 2gd (for example) praised the decision to go with a million per player because it's supposedly good for PR - in my opinion, this is a horrible reason for the decision, and it's also pretty surprising that 2gd supports this when he's always been advocating less top-heavy prize distributions (and this one is horribly top heavy). You don't need more PR than "10 million prize pool".
2. The drop off from 8th to 9th is horrible... Seeing both TL and Titan lose the 500k BO3 is really sad and completely unnecessary (see bottom of the post).
3. 3rd-8th is kind of similar. For example, 644k for 5th, 510k for 8th (remember, 48k for 9th?). The difference in skill between the 5th team and the 8th team is probably a lot bigger than the difference between the 8th and 9th team, yet this is not at all reflected in the prize money (on the contrary, it's quite the opposite).
Often in life, the simplest solution is the best solution. So, consider the simplest prize distribution you can have. Say you have a certain factor f. The 16th place team gets some number x, the 15th team gets f*x, the 14th team gets f^2*x etc. (I'm aware they don't differentiate between some positions and you can trivially account for that, but for simplicity, let's ignore that). You can then pick some factor f and given the total prize pool, you can see the distribution. For example, for f=1.4, you get (approx)
1. 3084279 2. 2203057 3. 1573612 4. 1124008 5. 802863 6. 573473 7. 409624 8. 292588 9. 208991 10. 149279 11. 106628 12. 76163 13. 54402 14. 38858 15. 27756 16. 19825
Obviously, this is just an example and another factor might work better (probably a slightly lower one), but even this distribution seems better than the one Valve are using in every single aspect. The finals is a million dollar BO5 - if that's not hype enough for someone, then they have a serious problem. The differences between the various positions are bigger than in the current distribution except at the very top (this is a good thing on both accounts). Nobody goes home crying and the decider games up to the say 11th place are as big as the finals of major non-TI tournaments.
Most importantly, you'd support a large number of players for playing full time. This is the opportunity that was missed in my opinion - the scene would have been served a lot better if a larger number of teams got good money for continuing their gaming careers. The fans of all these teams contributed to the prize pool. Titan and TL fans probably want their teams to "survive" or have a positive year and don't really care if five players become millionaires.
Anyway, this blog turned out a lot worse than I'd like but Na'Vi is playing now so I might take time to fix it up a bit later
|
I think it's generally a bit anti-climatic to be playing for less money than you've already won. If players have 2.2 million playing for another ~.9 million just doesn't feel quite the same. Having an increasing amount won by advancing is meant to coax out the best play for the game (especially the finals). Yeah it may not matter as much with such large pots, but still. That said yeah TI4 is probably a little top-heavy in distribution. For larger tournaments you can't really follow that down to like #10th or even #8th position, but I think it's a bit more exciting if #1st place is twice the size of #2nd.
|
I really like the fact that 1st basically gets the largest chunk. TI4 is not an easy event to win, and the prize should reflect that. However, ideally you would want every team to get at least 100k. I really feel like you are suggesting Valve be like Riot and support the teams more. I think Valve's approach to TI is simple....this is the tournament to determine who is the best team in the world this year. TI isn't like a year long tournament with matches every week. There are so many different leagues that pay teams money. Valve's job isn't to pay money to support teams, Valve's job is to make money. The only reason the prize pool is so huge is because the community contributed so much. Valve isn't spending a ton of money on this event. I mean hell streaming on twitch isn't that expensive at all.
|
That's a valid objection I guess, but it's still almost a million dollars for one BO5. The thing is, this prize pool is unprecedented in eSports and you can't really compare it to sports that have a much more stable structure supporting the pro players. Anyway, you can easily achieve this property by tweaking the model slightly (for example scale the factor at each step so that it becomes 2 for the finals) and you'd still get a significantly saner distribution. The point is, it seems really silly to model the prize distribution with the primary goal to give the winning team a million per player.
|
On July 15 2014 05:45 HeeroFX wrote: I think Valve's approach to TI is simple....this is the tournament to determine who is the best team in the world this year. Right, but like any other tournament, it doesn't do that. All the remaining teams in the top 8 have beaten each other in the last several months in different events. It's fairly likely the champion will be determined by small details and awarding that with 3.4 times more money doesn't seem worth it to me.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
I agree that the prize distribution is a bit wacky. I'm fine with 1st getting the biggest chunk, but the drop off for later teams is just unnecessary and detrimental. The biggest loser here is titan because SEA teams need the most support, losing out on 450k hurts them far more than a team like Alliance. More prize money allows them to support themselves for the next year and gives them a real chance to develop further and gives the SEA scene a greater chance to develop.
|
On July 15 2014 06:13 Plexa wrote: I agree that the prize distribution is a bit wacky. I'm fine with 1st getting the biggest chunk, but the drop off for later teams is just unnecessary and detrimental. The biggest loser here is titan because SEA teams need the most support, losing out on 450k hurts them far more than a team like Alliance. More prize money allows them to support themselves for the next year and gives them a real chance to develop further and gives the SEA scene a greater chance to develop.
yeah I think that's the biggest problem. What I would have liked to see it them take 5% of 1st place (so ~250k) and distributed it to teams in 9-14th. Ultimately that would have meant +30-40k for each team in those spots giving everyone enough money to be a pretty good prize (i.e 50k minimum).
Giving a prize for 15th/16th seems odd in a tournament where many teams get in based on invites and geographical location. I sort of like that teams have to work to get a prize.
|
On July 15 2014 06:13 Plexa wrote: I agree that the prize distribution is a bit wacky. I'm fine with 1st getting the biggest chunk, but the drop off for later teams is just unnecessary and detrimental. The biggest loser here is titan because SEA teams need the most support, losing out on 450k hurts them far more than a team like Alliance. More prize money allows them to support themselves for the next year and gives them a real chance to develop further and gives the SEA scene a greater chance to develop. Both you and a post above mention "1st get the biggest chunk". Well, did someone EVER suggested that 2nd or 3rd place get more money than 1st? w0000000000t. Almost everyone agrees that this distribution is too top heavy, especially considering 1st place almost gets 1M per player. It's insane.
I would have been perfectly fine with them saying "hey guys we reached all the goals, the next goals up to 10M raise money for other tournaments" and give it to like DH, SL, ESL and the Chinese tours I can't name, pretty much like they do for CS with esports keys, because like the OP mentioned above, TI doesn't determine the BEST team in the year, they all pretty much won a tour against each other in the past year, it just determines the best team in this specific month.
Take alliance for example. They DOMINATED the entire last season. And they were inches away from loosing to Navi in the finals. Would that make Navi the best team in the season? Not by a longshot. Then what did they do? They got almost 300k for player and basically slacked 4 months and never came back up in the horse. What will the players that get 1M do? Does this grow the scene? Sure it brings more viewers this year, but what happens next 2 or 3 years when all the players are in the Caribbean enjoying their hard earned money?
|
On July 15 2014 06:32 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 06:13 Plexa wrote: I agree that the prize distribution is a bit wacky. I'm fine with 1st getting the biggest chunk, but the drop off for later teams is just unnecessary and detrimental. The biggest loser here is titan because SEA teams need the most support, losing out on 450k hurts them far more than a team like Alliance. More prize money allows them to support themselves for the next year and gives them a real chance to develop further and gives the SEA scene a greater chance to develop. Giving a prize for 15th/16th seems odd in a tournament where many teams get in based on invites and geographical location. I sort of like that teams have to work to get a prize.
Both 15 and 16th were Qualifier teams though. I think qualifiers should have some prize pool tied to it. Invited teams might feel gimped by not being able to compete for that prize but they are invited because they won some money that the qualifiers team didn't. I also don't have a problem with giving money to 15th and 16th because even if they were invited, they worked at least 6 months to deserve said invite.
|
On July 15 2014 06:13 Plexa wrote: I agree that the prize distribution is a bit wacky. I'm fine with 1st getting the biggest chunk, but the drop off for later teams is just unnecessary and detrimental. The biggest loser here is titan because SEA teams need the most support, losing out on 450k hurts them far more than a team like Alliance. More prize money allows them to support themselves for the next year and gives them a real chance to develop further and gives the SEA scene a greater chance to develop. And the counter-argument is that if the SEA scene can't support local teams through sponsorships and local tournaments then why should valve subsidize that scene? They already gave them 2.25 slots at TI (1 invite, 1 qualifier victory, 1 wildcard slot). If the players there suck that doesn't mean valve should simply throw money at them to somehow make them better. NA can support TL/NAR/EG/Dignitas etc despite potentially questionable levels of play simply because the sponsorships and prize-contribution is there. The nations are simply rich enough for a fanbase to pay professional players to essentially entertain them. The SEA fanbase simply hasn't demonstrated continued ability to sustain their own scene beyond Orange/Titan aka 1 team. Valve throwing money at them doesn't change that. Valve certainly already gave an enormous amount of publicity to the players and teams of SEA.
|
Here is an example of how real sports allocate eight-figure prize pools :
http://www.tsmplug.com/tennis/prize-money-of-all-grand-slams-which-is-highest-paying/
Much better than what Valve is doing IMHO. Also much better than the distribution proposed in the OP, whose formula is overly simplistic (multiplicative from bottom to top is inferior to divisive top to bottom because it results in final matches having relatively small stakes).
|
I think the million dollars per player on the best eam is pretty nice, worth some sacrifices in the lower payouts.
The one that really got me was the 8th to 9th jump. I still think that was a mistake. The elimination BO3's in the last two days were worth 450000! Yet there were played with no audience with no real hype. I think that was the biggest opportunity valve missed.
Getting to Key Arena was its own reward. Valve didn't need to also make it worth half a million dollars
|
I think if the idea is that winning TI should be that hard, prestigious and thatextremely paying of, so that the winners could easilly retire from the scene, and it will make scene grow even more, it's kind of artifical booting competetion mechanism, but that's just my two cents.
|
|
i agree on the 8th and 9th place difference being too much, but i dont see a problem with 1st place taking by far the largest portion.
|
I thought Godz mentioned on In the Studio that he didn't like the prize pool distribution?
Either way, I think Valve should have also done tiebreaks for the 6th place spot, just simply because of the prize distribution issue.
|
On July 15 2014 09:10 GeneralStan wrote: I think the million dollars per player on the best eam is pretty nice, worth some sacrifices in the lower payouts.
The one that really got me was the 8th to 9th jump. I still think that was a mistake. The elimination BO3's in the last two days were worth 450000! Yet there were played with no audience with no real hype. I think that was the biggest opportunity valve missed.
Getting to Key Arena was its own reward. Valve didn't need to also make it worth half a million dollars yea, especially with the way 5-8 after round robin phase were determined by head to head when only 7-8 were eligible for elim, felt kinda sour for 9th and 10th
|
On July 15 2014 09:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote: I think if the idea is that winning TI should be that hard, prestigious and thatextremely paying of, so that the winners could easilly retire from the scene, and it will make scene grow even more, it's kind of artifical booting competetion mechanism, but that's just my two cents.
Who the hell is gonna retire after a $1 million payday for playing a game? If you just won, why not run it back for another year and try to do it again? If anything, this pay structure seems likely to stagnate the top few teams while generating massive turnover in the lower teams.
I think the split is overly punitive for the lower teams. The tennis prize splits that someone linked earlier is pretty interesting, as it seems much more egalitarian. Personally, I would aim for something in between. Everyone's gotta eat.
|
On July 15 2014 09:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote: I think if the idea is that winning TI should be that hard, prestigious and thatextremely paying of, so that the winners could easilly retire from the scene, and it will make scene grow even more, it's kind of artifical booting competetion mechanism, but that's just my two cents. The winners will be one of the team that plays the top doto. Can the scene really afford to loose 5 of the top 50 players to retirement every year because they won the big bucks + the ones that naturally retire? Like srsly, where would we be now if Navi retired after TI1, IG after TI2 and A after TI3?
|
On July 15 2014 09:43 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 09:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote: I think if the idea is that winning TI should be that hard, prestigious and thatextremely paying of, so that the winners could easilly retire from the scene, and it will make scene grow even more, it's kind of artifical booting competetion mechanism, but that's just my two cents. The winners will be one of the team that plays the top doto. Can the scene really afford to loose 5 of the top 50 players to retirement every year because they won the big bucks + the ones that naturally retire? Like srsly, where would we be now if Navi retired after TI1, IG after TI2 and A after TI3?
Just like NBA players would retire after they get paid millions for their rookie season.
OH WAIT
|
A fairer way would be to split the prizepool by region and distribute it to the teams according to their winrates against each other throughout the year. Also would save on the costs of running a huge tournament in Seattle.
TI is a marketing instrument first and entertainment second, both benefit more from the hype of making five people millionaires rather than some idealized notion of a fair way to distribute millions of dollars over a couple dozen games over two weeks.
|
On July 15 2014 10:37 Soap wrote: A fairer way would be to split the prizepool by region and distribute it to the teams according to their winrates against each other throughout the year. Also would save on the costs of running a huge tournament in Seattle.
TI is a marketing instrument first and entertainment second, both benefit more from the hype of making five people millionaires rather than some idealized notion of a fair way to distribute millions of dollars over a couple dozen games over two weeks.
I think it's also a way for Valve to sort of prop up the pro scene. Valve benefits from an active pro scene the same way Riot does. While Riot directly seeds a large number of events, Valve pretty much puts all its eggs in the basket of the international. Selling tickets in game client is another way
So it's not necessarily about an idealized or fair way of spreading out money, it's about balancing a huge big prize and lots of hype with the desire to bring as much stability into the pro scene as possible
|
On July 15 2014 09:54 GeneralStan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 09:43 misirlou wrote:On July 15 2014 09:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote: I think if the idea is that winning TI should be that hard, prestigious and thatextremely paying of, so that the winners could easilly retire from the scene, and it will make scene grow even more, it's kind of artifical booting competetion mechanism, but that's just my two cents. The winners will be one of the team that plays the top doto. Can the scene really afford to loose 5 of the top 50 players to retirement every year because they won the big bucks + the ones that naturally retire? Like srsly, where would we be now if Navi retired after TI1, IG after TI2 and A after TI3? Just like NBA players would retire after they get paid millions for their rookie season. OH WAIT Watch the alliance team profile video. Then come back to me.
|
My only issue is 8th to 9th. Both teams qualified for next phase, but the disparity is too huge.
|
Considering previously the bottom 8 teams got jack shit I'd say its progress. With the pool as gigantic as it is I wanted at least a bone thrown to lower placing teams. I can live with the bottom two getting the shaft, I'd have no problem if they got a few bucks though. Valve obviously wants the big takeaway to be "win first place and your whole team are millionaires!" and I'm not going to blame them for that. I can see things being tweaked a bit next year, but this year they wanted to swing their big dicks with that headline. I've got no issue with having a massive drop from 8th to 9th though just like I have no problem with teams getting kicked out after the group stage. Is everything my idea of perfect? No, but it has moved towards a better direction.
|
On July 15 2014 09:54 GeneralStan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 09:43 misirlou wrote:On July 15 2014 09:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote: I think if the idea is that winning TI should be that hard, prestigious and thatextremely paying of, so that the winners could easilly retire from the scene, and it will make scene grow even more, it's kind of artifical booting competetion mechanism, but that's just my two cents. The winners will be one of the team that plays the top doto. Can the scene really afford to loose 5 of the top 50 players to retirement every year because they won the big bucks + the ones that naturally retire? Like srsly, where would we be now if Navi retired after TI1, IG after TI2 and A after TI3? Just like NBA players would retire after they get paid millions for their rookie season. OH WAIT
NBA players get paid regardless, win or lose. They get a SALARY.
The prize distribution is utterly stupid for one reason:
Best of 1.
|
Poker, Pool, Snooker, Darts i can keep going..... these are all sports/games that divvy up prize money pretty much the same way as TI.
In most Poker tourneys, 1st place takes home nearly half the prize pool, usually more than half. This is true of most sports that run without a unified league or seasonal scoring system. Tennis is the exception that proves the rule, even still its a pretty big pay jump at Wimbledon from 1st to 2nd (double) and 3rd half again, down to almost 1/10th for going out in the first round. If you didn't make the main event, you still get paid but its down to 1% of the winners money.
TI is about hype, its the center piece of the dota year, its THE tournament to win, no one cares who came second. Careers are made, teams are broken, its what everyone works toward all year. There are other tournaments to make your living off, TI is about prestige. Its about taking home that massive first prize.
Yes they could shave a little off the top to give to the lower teams but then it won't make any real difference. Most of the top 16 teams are doing just fine money wise, they've all had good finishes in other tournaments or else they wouldn't be there. I'd much rather see teams making their money playing the rest of the year and TI be about what it is, hype and prestige, fighting to go home a millionaire.
|
I agree completely, using a factor (approximately, not exactly cause that would look weird) seems like the most obvious solution. I don't think there's a good reason for the giant divide between 8 and 9, and 1 and 2.
IMO it's more important to foster a deep and sustainable environment for pros rather than make headlines with large prizes and give money to teams that "deserve it" more. Like PPD said, no team is deserving of a $5 million dollar prize.
|
On July 15 2014 09:35 Rho_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 09:20 ForTehDarkseid wrote: I think if the idea is that winning TI should be that hard, prestigious and thatextremely paying of, so that the winners could easilly retire from the scene, and it will make scene grow even more, it's kind of artifical booting competetion mechanism, but that's just my two cents. Who the hell is gonna retire after a $1 million payday for playing a game? If you just won, why not run it back for another year and try to do it again? If anything, this pay structure seems likely to stagnate the top few teams while generating massive turnover in the lower teams. I think the split is overly punitive for the lower teams. The tennis prize splits that someone linked earlier is pretty interesting, as it seems much more egalitarian. Personally, I would aim for something in between. Everyone's gotta eat. We're nearing the age where there is no raw skill advantage, there's only strats, experience and infrastructure advantage.
Look at WPC ACE League for example. Never in history of Chinese dota tier 2-3 teams took so many games from tier 1 ones, and for good reason - after TI4 the shuffle is inevitable, and the best players can easily make into the Big Five team. If we take into account, for example, that 2-3/5 of DK won TI4 and retire, it means there in turn would be a competetion for making one's way into tier 2 team instead, cause aviable places at tier 1 team are already mostly occupied.
If we apply the same logic to TI itself, it basically means that the fact you got invited to TI no matter means a thing, you always get a chance to strike next year [with a better team]. The ones who don't think so are the ones who are giving their all to conquer Aegis right now, because time always works against them.
Basically same thing as some real life sports like swimming, baseball, racing, extreme kind of sports, etc. But people are doing it no justice and compare Dota esports to football and tennis instead.
|
150k for being #10. that money is too easy especially since this is esport.
Watch it next year there will be more newblood to go pro just because no body saw this 10mil prize pool coming this year.
|
Yeah i don't like how the prize pool is spread out either. Considering the fact that players struggle to make a decent living, having a more egalitarian distribution would be far more sustainable. Could easily take off 1m from the no.1 spot and distribute among the lower ranked teams. 1m/player for the no.1 spot is just overkill. The marketing is already there with the 10million prize pool.
No i'm not advocating that valve be like riot and pay a salary, but the top 16 teams in the world should at least get something more than just a free trip to seattle.
|
On July 16 2014 04:00 FractalsOnFire wrote: Yeah i don't like how the prize pool is spread out either. Considering the fact that players struggle to make a decent living, having a more egalitarian distribution would be far more sustainable. Could easily take off 1m from the no.1 spot and distribute among the lower ranked teams. 1m/player for the no.1 spot is just overkill. The marketing is already there with the 10million prize pool.
No i'm not advocating that valve be like riot and pay a salary, but the top 16 teams in the world should at least get something more than just a free trip to seattle.
"Top 16" sounds a lot more grandiose until you consider that's like...out of 24 actually professional teams. Maybe even less, depending on where you draw the line.
From only this tournament, 6 teams will get a larger cash prize then they'll get from any other tournament this year (unless one of them steps up in a big way and wins a major LAN). 8 teams will win more money than they have seen in their entire DotA 2 careers combined, short of maybe iG and Na'vi.
People need to get a proper perspective on this. More than half of the entire professional scene is getting a big paycheck from this tournament.
|
And then people compare to the millions of professional football players. Considering the competition you face to reach a professional status and the kind of work and raw talent you need to reach that point and maintain it, Dota rewards it's players very well compared to most sports.
Yes, going pro in Dota is hard and risky, but that's the nature of any job where you have to be the very best to be apreciated. Plenty of failed actors, writers or sportsman struggle to make a living, but when you make it big, the rewards are far greater than the average profession.
|
The jump from 9 to 8 is pretty easy to understand. Teams that make the Main Event get paid the big money, those that miss the cut don't. If you think of the phase 1-3 as the TI preliminaries, it makes more sense. Why should Valve reward mediocrity? Teams shouldn't be entitled to a 6 figure payout just for showing up, especially since that 2/3 of the teams were invites.
|
It should be top heavy, it makes winning it that more important (and thus the viewer experience is better) .
|
The international is as much about marketing dota2 as anything else. $5 million to the top team, each player earning $1 million dollars is as good of a marketing tool as any. This new format also highlights the top 8 teams more than anything, so these teams are rewarded as such.
|
Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
Prize distribution is absolute garbage, Valve only cares about the headlines (as Comeh said).
Sport organizations and tourneys that have been around for decades have a much more balanced distribution, and, ultimately, it allows more teams to thrive while using and investing the prize money they received.
|
I think for leagues that occur over a duration, its better to have a more balanced prize pool, but for a one week event like TI 4 we want teams to have incentive to bring out the best and a little bit more to decide ultimately the champions, like past posters have noted, it makes nice headlines.
that being said, when it comes down to the wire, and a little bit of luck it is easy to see it being unfair, but we can now see teams starting with professional coaches, to eke out that little bit, I see it good in the long run to have a player support structure being established. Even if players leave after winning a lot, or losing and not winning enough, to now have a support structure being built could only mean good things to scout out new players in the scene. Imagine the hype of not dealing with one arteezy but a few candidates throughtout the year as well as the new metashifts they bring.
|
People complaining about the prize pool are disgusting.
|
|
On July 18 2014 19:38 ZachFreeman wrote: People complaining about the prize pool are disgusting. Me and all my friends who use to watch BW pretty much agreed that the prize pool was freakin stupid. The dota scene is not carried by any one team so I find it ridiculous that we essentially just reward one team in a community funded (well mostly) tournament.
|
The most important series prize-wise other than Grand Finals were the bubble matches determining 9th-10th. These matches are potentially the most tense and hype for that reason alone. These matches are played outside the main event with no live audience.
That's a fucking stupid format.
|
bubble bracket next year in a smaller theatre please, accessible to public. People will come
|
I don't really have a problem in the prize difference from 1st to 2nd. From 8th to 9th though is pretty devastating going from 500k to 50k when both teams advanced from the round robin.
|
9th place prize is too small.. ur talking about 9th goddamn place, not 3rd or 4th, of course it's small. you're not even in the top 50% of teams, you don't make it to the main event but you should be rewarded because what? you got an invite to ti4 or beat a bunch of tier 2-3 teams to qualify? all this money got people thinking ti is some sort of give away. well it's not, it's still a competition. and in most competitions 9th place doesn't get shit. 50k is more than enough for a poor performance. if anything, 7-8th prize was a bit too high, but i guess valve but a lot of emphasis on who makes it to the main event which does make sense considering it's pretty much another tournament in itself.
|
As an spectator, its my dream to have a winner-takes-all TI. Unfortunaly, that likely won't happen.
|
|
|
|
|